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Hong Kong Current Events An Estranged Hong Kong
Hong Kong Current Events An Estranged Hong Kong | An Estranged Hong Kong |
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| Written by Alice Poon (潘慧嫻) | |
| Thursday, 19 January 2012 | |
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I’ve just learned from the HK Golden Forum that my favorite wonton noodle haunt Sum Kee (森記) on Percival Street has just closed shop. The reason? The shop landlord has asked to increase the monthly rent from HK$100,000 to HK$400,000, the last straw on the camel’s back. For a modest wonton noodle and congee shop like Sum Kee, which has been selling a bowl of wonton noodle for HK$21.00 for the last three years, paying HK$100,000 rent is already quite ridiculous, not to mention four times the amount. Only I didn’t realize that my last visit in December would be the last. Each year I visit Hong Kong, the place seems a little more distant than the last. In Causeway Bay, streets are packed to the point that it’s easy to feel claustrophobic. Mainland shoppers towing big and small suitcases jostling with locals. Self-important, curtained Guangdong-licensed cars competing for roadways with local cars. Strange faces. Unfamiliar Putonghua. Forever changing shop facades in the vicinity of Time Square. Comments (124)
  written by B. Pang, January 20, 2012
I have to agree with Julius: Every one of your accusations about mainlanders' deleterious affect on the local economy can be sad about rude, obnoxious HK Chinese in Canada and Australia. Just as mainlanders account for a third of property sales in HK--creating an artificial shortage, since most units remain empty--HK "investors" are responsible for the same in Vancouver. I can't count how many HK Chinese I know who boast loudly of how they've taken advantage of the Canadian system--to give birth to children, get free or cheap education, etc.--while also evading paying taxes in Canada, as if they are to be admired for their cleverness!
I've lived in Hong Kong for 25+ years, and I too bemoan the homogenization of its neighbourhoods, with all my favorite restaurants, tea shops, and even Starbucks, giving way to the same old - same old "designer" fashion shops. I am sickened by the fact that sales clerks ignore me to my face, while mainland customers behind me in line thrust fistfuls of cash over my shoulder to buy cameras or soaps or whatever the shop's merchandise is. Maybe the problem isn't Hong Kong people or mainlanders, but CHINESE people, whose culture and ethics are often at odds with the remainder of the world.
 written by Wahaha, January 20, 2012
Imagine :
a nice-looking little lady, looking so gentle, so nice, but deep in her heart, with such twisted hatred towards 1.3 billion people. Democracy ? freedom of speech ? No, she doesnt give a f@##!!!
 written by Julius, January 20, 2012
B.Pang, also remember the Monster Houses by Hong Kongers in Canada. The Canadians totally detested this behaviour by Hong Kong immigrants. Basically quaint Canadian houses were torn down to be replaced by montrous huge houses that took up the whole available plot. There was a lot of consternation at the time. I remember back in the old days, we Hong Kongers would look down at our poor compatriots from across the border, because they were poorer than us, yet we now detest them because they are rich? Callously laying the blame on mainlanders is sheer ignorance, it is the Hong Kong Government that need to the address the issues. As I mentioned before, one way to solve the maternity ward issue is to revoke the right of residence for babies born in HKG to non-resident mothers. Hong Kong can also learn from Paris, where the city government are preventing hoarding of shops by Wenzhou merchants by having a say on what type of businesses that operate from a shop. If ordinary Hong Kongers can't afford housing, then expand the HOS scheme. Let the mainlanders invest and crash and burn and profit with the cycles. For whatever prejudices we have aganist the mainlanders, we can't deny the fact that Hong Kong's current success is driven by the mainland, we have to see the positive aspects as well..
written by Wahaha, January 20, 2012
The purpose of this blogpost is, rather than to assign blame, is to try to point out the obvious, with the hope of urging the authorities to take necessary action before it is too late.
******************************************************* ********** LOL, another example of mouth-bigger-than-butt retard. Let us assume you are right, show people how government will be able to "take necessary action" without offending the individual rights. Also, I dont know how you pull your underwear up to your nose by claiming that is related to "universal value". (just look at Singapore)
written by Julius, January 21, 2012
I have also read the other articles where you have expressed your support and democracy for the people of China, yet in another article, you put them down. Which bring's up a basic question, do you even respect them? Or do you have ulterior motives, like supporting your views that Hong Kong should not belong to China? I was born in Hong Kong and I still live here, after a stint in an American college. I still hold a HKSAR passport, nothing else. Hong Kong is my home, but I am also vividly aware of the prejudices of Hong Kong people. I have watched that video you linked about the MTR incident.The HKG man's approach was very wrong and I would have told him to shut up if I was there. I am not saying the behaviour of the mainland family was correct, but why start using the mainlander tag to insult people? Does the actions of a few justify an attack on 1.3 billion people? I myself have seen HKG people littering, does that mean the whole HKG population are litterers? Not long ago, Hong Kongers had a reputation for being rude as well, especially during colonial times.
Also, you can't stop mainlanders from buying property here, just as you can't stop Hong Kongers buying property in Vancouver or Asutralians snapping up villas in Bali. It's a free market and sellers are delighted to sell high. Unless you wish for a socialist approach, which will kill Hong Kong's economy. Mainland tourists have saved the hotel and retail businesses in Hong Kong and have also accelerated a boom in new contruction, this have provided more jobs for HKG. I remember when Tung Chee Wa announced in 1997 that he was going to build 80,000 HOS units so disadvantaged Hong Kongers would be able to afford them, he was roundly condemned for contributing to the property crash. High expensive property prices have always been an issue in Hong Kong, even under British rule, I know that first hand, as my then paltry 16,000 HKD monthly salary would struggle at even paying for a 500 sq feet mortgage at far way Kingswood Villas at Tin Shui Wai. My point is, you can't have it both ways. And for whatever problems, we always use mainlanders as scapegoats. Without new immigrants, who is going to work in our restaurants? Or do the menial jobs that blue blood Hong Kongers won't do??? Who is going to replace people like you who decided Hong Kong was not a good enough a place to live in and therefore hightailed to Canada and Australia? And I am really disappointed by your continuation of again pointing to a civic issue. As this is always a convenient tool to justify prejudices against mainlanders. Not long ago, Hong Kong itself was not clean. When the MTR first opened and several years thereafter, foreign correspondents at the SCMP would joke that the favorite sport of Hong Kongers was the dash to get seats as the MTR train doors open. Hong Kong streets were filthy as hell back then, even dirtier than current mainland cities. Old Hong Kongers would still spit, until SARS made such behaviour entirely unacceptable. I remembered the canal in Tsuen Wan was polluted red from the dye factories nearby. The stink of the Kaitak nullah could be felt throughout Kowloon. Most mainland tourists I observed in Hong Kong are mostly law abiding, queue up, and generally stick to the rules, but for any isolated incident that a mainlander breaks a rule, it becomes a convenient excuse to vent pent up frustrations on them. Unless Hong Kongers can gain respect from other peoples around the world, you and others have to discard these illogical and irrational prejudice against mainlanders and others (another group of people constantly ridiculed by Hong Kongers are the domestic helpers and people from South Asia, like Bun Mui and Ah Cha). The D & G incident and even the video that you have linked on the MTR incident, will just amplify what mainlanders always believe, that Hong Kongers look down on them, and prefer to be shoe shiners of their British colonial overlords. I hope the 2 before mentioned incidents will not hurt foreign investors confidence in Hong Kong and affect tourism. I live in Hong Kong, and I have a stake in Hong Kong too, please do not rile the pot unneceessarily by perpetuating distrust between Hong Kong people and Mainland people, we are all Chinese.
 written by Lyall Boswell, January 21, 2012
Alice is right. There is a gap between HKers and mainland Chinese. What you think about that gap depends upon where you stand. But what is never acceptable is personal abuse. Wahaha and his ilk are so quick to take offence, and so quick to deliver abuse. Your words tell us all we need to know about you.
 written by HKer, January 21, 2012
Lyall, don't comment on issues that you have no clue about. If there is a gap between a British and an Australian, does that Australians shud be discrimated against by the British? You will do well in apartheid South Africa. Let real Chinese and Hong Kongers debate this issue here.
written by HKer, January 21, 2012
I would also like to add that Alice likes to write about human rights and democracy in China, yet he finds it convenient to limit the human rights of mainlanders when the situation suits her. Talk about hypocrisy.
 written by lol, January 21, 2012
A coward old b!tch whining about mainland. That's funny. Why you even worry about China and hong kong? You left because you were a scare little coward like your family. Hong kong is better now along with China.
written by lol, January 21, 2012
The points you made are irrelevant. This whole thing got nothing to do with mainland China. It is a store owned by white people and that didn't like hong kong chinese. That's all. You trying to put mainlander down because they are successful and how they hit your nerve because the view you have about them still didn't hold up when you left Asia like a coward. Example like how China and her people going destroy Hong Kong after the hangover...am I right? you still hold that opinion like all British and her lapdogs. LMAO
 written by Dave Chin, January 21, 2012
@Lyall, I am a 3rd generation Chinese American, my grandparents left China after the war from Canton and settled down in California. Here in America, Chinese and Asians suffer subtle forms of racism, like quota limits on college admissions. How can you justify discriminating against someone because there is gap between them? Isn't this one of the reasons the white South African government used to discriminate against the black Africans. What makes this even more ridiculous is that we are seeing a group of Chinese people discriminating against another, because of a gap? I feel very saddened that this has happened, just because of an incident where an Italian owned store treated Hong Kongers differently vis a vis Mainlanders and other foreigners. Yet it baffles me that the author of this article lays the blame squarely on Mainland Chinese people.
 written by Anonymously, January 21, 2012
This Alice Poon is pathetic and sounds like she yearns for the days of old when the people of Hong Kong were so thoroughly colonized that they considered themselves "British", when the actual British considered THEM nothing of the kind. How many of these so-called British were offered passports to the UK prior to the 1997 handover, for example? What a pathetic joke, these people. These "Hongkongers" (like Alice) are so deluded that to this day they look down on mainlanders as Chinese and themselves as British (or at least non-Chinese), even as it is Chinese blood that courses through their veins every second of every minute of every day of their colonized lives. I've met several of these arrogant bastards during my travels, and have never hesitated to place my proverbial foot on their necks and leave a permanent scar on their egos. It is unfortunate that some mental incompetent gave this British colonial Alice Poon a venue to voice her degenerate and prejudiced opinions about mainlanders, but not all is lost. We can see by the comments many people share the same dim view of her. Thank God for that.
 written by SinoMoney, January 21, 2012
I've seen you HKonger types in Canada for 25yrs and conclude that you people are obnoxious self important snobs. I've been to China 12 times and lived in Beijing for 2yrs. They're on the whole decent hard working ordinary people who want to get rich like anybody else. You HKonger types brag ALL the time and act the way your 'WHITE TRASH" brits treated ordinary Chinese in Pre Turn Over HK. Look in the mirror. Your a Chink like the rest of us. Wannabee White's like this Alice Poon are disappointed that she longer has the priviledge to asskiss the Brits. I was born in Canada to 1949 people who left a war torn China. I'm no communist but the CCP has done a good job rebuilding China and raise the quality of life for the ordinary Chinese.
 written by TheMiddlePath, January 22, 2012
Without China there would not be a Hong Kong as we know it.
Without Hong Kong, China would still be there.
 written by m, January 22, 2012
There's a lot of attacks on this blog without seeing the bigger picture. The MTR incident got out of hand because of language issues as well. Have you considered the mandarin/cantonese divide? Perhaps this will even the debate a little:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nUkiaDS3g4
 written by Malaysia Chinese, January 23, 2012
I have been following her blog on matters concerning China/HK & cannot get away from the impression that she is a neo-liberal hell-bent on trying to propagate the so-called western values like demoncracy, human rights, free speech etc. unto HK in particular & China in general That is alright if she balances her such admiration of the white man's ideas with the darker sides of these same western bullshits which now prove so disastrous economically humanity-wise with equal zeal. That is never going to be & therefore she does appear to be a political & moral hypocrite. Another hallmark of her advocacy is perhaps her open insidiousness & contempt for her mainland compatriots which she thinks are the natural by-product of their heinous & hated communist upbringing on the mainland. These are perhaps the still stubborn group of colonial left-overs who will not hesitate to go all out for HK independence if the opportunity arises & China must must resolutely push for their eradication through HK's school systems come what may. It just amazes me as to why HK is so relax about the dual nationality status of these pro-west elements which allows these colonial die-hards to carrying out all their sabotage against Chinese unity with the comfort of secured jobs, businesses & right of abode - literally earning Chinese money while trying to destroy the source which milks them.
 written by GuangdongRen, January 23, 2012
A correction for the unrealistic and narrow viewpoint of this writer.
"rejection of or aversion to universal values like rule of law, democracy, equality and liberty." Democracy is not Universal, it is not the only and single way to achieve equality and liberty. In fact most inequalities are caused by democracy / Capitalism and especially in terms of impeding the civil rights of minority people e.g. Western countries. Democracy sounds just as good as any other political system. I'm in support of whatever works for the people. The Cantonese just needs to learn the common dialect as well, it's also the national language. Considering that HK is so small, they cannot stay under their little rock forever, If you look at Singapore and Malaysia, people there can speak more than 2 languages.
written by GuangdongRen, January 23, 2012
I think Alice Poon is whitewashed and has become ignorant, you can see this when she leans towards the pro western liberal democracy solution where it is totally irrelevant.
We are talking about a totally different society.
written by Wahaha, January 23, 2012
Alice is right. There is a gap between HKers and mainland Chinese. What you think about that gap depends upon where you stand. But what is never acceptable is personal abuse. Wahaha and his ilk are so quick to take offence, and so quick to deliver abuse. Your words tell us all we need to know about you
************************************** Lyall Boswell, I never try to be nice to an evil. let me repeat : "a nice-looking little lady, looking so gentle, so nice, but deep in her heart, with such twisted hatred towards 1.3 billion people. Democracy ? freedom of speech ? No, she doesnt give a f@##!!!" BTW, enlight us by showing how APoon was right in any way, simply because you like what she said ? or you are just another APoon?
written by JP, January 24, 2012
Are all the comments related to disdain for author or are we actually looking at the issues at hand? I don't think either side is exactly correct in this situation. However, the racist and derogatory comments by a Peking University professor is a fact, and his comments were supported by various Chinese netizens. The MTR incident became out of hand because of a rude response from those who violated the rule. Everybody here seems to want to paint one side as awful and the other side as innocent. If you look at the video of the Peking professor and his crazy rants then you will see why there is tension on both sides.
written by Wahaha, January 24, 2012
JP,
I give you a fact : I don't know how old you are. If you are over 20, you must know "Da Lu Zai" (大陆仔  , the way Hongkonger called mainlanders in 1980s and 90s. If you are not old enough to know what that means, ask your parents.
 written by Dean Ooi, January 25, 2012
Reading the original post and the various comments most of which are for the Mainlanders, I can't help but feel this is perhaps a good start for Chinese to realize they are their own worst enemies. Poor Alice, I hope you can take this in your stride. It is a good learning curve. Chinese have been the whipping boys of the world especially the West for umpteen years. The main reason is that Chinese don't respect their own kind. You don't see that in the Japanese, Koreans or even the Indians. I can't think of any race or culture that so passionately looks down upon themselves. It is as though this elevates their status in their mind. I don't mean jingoism or any false sense of superiority vis-a-vis others, but a genuine, sincere love and respect for your own before venturing out to others. Charity starts at home and the most esteemed charity is the tolerance and respect for the meek and the poor of your own. Without this no person, race or country can expect respect from others. For Chinese to become a truly great people, they must first learn to appreciate, love and respect themselves. This is true self-esteem.
 written by Descendent, January 25, 2012
During the Opium Wars the British Navy attacked and bombarded forts along China's coast with superior weapon technology especially canon technology providing superior firepower. The British took Hong Kong.
But when the British landed on shore a different outcome ensued. Imperial Qing Forces fighting to the last man at Tianzunmiao in the battle for Zhejiang Province, beat back the onslaught of British invaders five times in succession. In the other major land battle fought in Zhenjiang City, for Jiangsu Province, 1,500 Imperial Bannermen yielded no ground in defiance of British force ten times their strength. Superior Qing Force Calvary and manuever warfare defeated the British land invasion campaigns. Not politically correct but honest truth. There were many Cantonese/Bok Yue ethnicity traitors who collaborated with the British engaging in Narco Traffiking of Opium and posioning China. This Alice Poon like so many Hong Kongers are traitors.
 written by CP, January 25, 2012
Alice, I've read a few good articles from you, but I'm afraid you've missed the target on this issue. It's not a surprise that many Hong Kongers look down on mainlanders, but it has very little to do with civic values, political ideals or other lofty-sounding principles. The plain fact is that Hong Kongers see themselves as superior to mainlanders and look down on them for any reason, real or imagined. Even this article where you talk about shops that cater to wealthy mainlanders and blame these wealthy mainlanders, shows that mainlanders will be attacked for being rude or eating on the MTR, or for being wealthy. Please, take another look at your article and reconsider your views, if you want to blame people, it should be local Hong Konger politicians, business and property tycoons, not the mainlanders.
written by Wahaha, January 25, 2012
Chinese have been the whipping boys of the world especially the West for umpteen years. The main reason is that Chinese don't respect their own kind.
******************************************** Dean Ooi, So, you are saying APoon is not a chinese IN BLOOD. Is this what you mean ?
written by Wahaha, January 25, 2012
For Chinese to become a truly great people, they must first learn to appreciate, love and respect themselves. This is true self-esteem.
******************************************************* ** Dean Ooi, I think I misunderstood you in my last post, my apology.
 written by APoon, January 25, 2012
For readers who read Chinese, if you read this Hong Kong Economic Journal blogpost (which is an exchange of words between mainlanders and Hong Kongers on a mainland emigration discussion forum), you will understand a little more why Hong Kong people feel the way they feel.
http://www.hkej.com/template/blog/php/blog_details.php?blog_posts_id=79678 If you read the comments on this other HKEJ forum discussion thread regarding the MTR eating incident, you will see how Hong Kongers feel about the civic value gap that I mentioned in my post. http://www.hkej.com/template/forum/php/forum_details.php?blog_posts_id=79565 I was merely pointing out the obvious in my post. I hope commentators will refrain from using abusive language and slanderous personal attack. These techniques only go to show that the users are an uncivilized lot.
written by Wahaha, January 25, 2012
I was merely pointing out the obvious in my post.
I hope commentators will refrain from using abusive language and slanderous personal attack. These techniques only go to show that the users are an uncivilized lot. ******************************************************* ****** APoon, You are an evil, that is obvious. You know why ? Because you obviously know the fact mentioned by Julius in #2 post, and canadian locals didnt like what Hongkongers did in their communities. Are the bad habits by mainlanders really annoying? sure, like smoking and spitting. But how is it twisted by your twisted mind into something that is related to "value" ? Isn't the system in Singapore an authoritarian system? Do you know lot of Hongkongers talk very loudly in public place in North America ? As a well educated person like you, it is impossible that you failed to see this. Therefore, the only reason you wrote "an estranged Hong Kong" was to let people believe "Hong Kong has been estranged by mainlanders, so to stir the hatred between Hongkongers and mainlanders." What kind of person would stir the hatred among people of HER OWN KIND with same eyes, same hairs, same skins? An evil. I didnt use any technical, I will not be nice to a person who tries to poop in front of my house.
written by Wahaha, January 25, 2012
BTW, I read the following about the housing in Hong Kong :
英《每日郵報》諷港籠民變籠狗 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2084971/Hong-Kongs-cage-homes-Tens-thousands-living-6ft-2ft-rabbit-hutches.html How do you think ?
 written by Cornelius Mueller, January 26, 2012
Of the last 30 years I lived the same time in Hong Kong (also when it was still a 'territory') and on the mainland. As a guest on both sides of the fence it's my lasting impression that people on either side are more similar than different.
It appears to me that, after the physical fence has between Shenzhen and the New Territories has become more open (it's rather symbolic, anyway), some people try to erect fences in their minds. That's a pity, this fences could be much more longer lasting and damaging. Hong Kong owes its success to immigrants, look at the biographies of the most successful people in public life and economics, where they were born. The majority was born on the mainland or can be considered (if one would apply Ms. Poon's standards) second or third generation immigrants. Twenty years ago, when the first tourists from the mainland visited HK, they were seen as an embarrassment because they were poor and didn't remove the labels from their oversized sunglasses and ill fitting suits. Immediately after July 1, 1997, customers from the mainland were kicked out of restaurants if they couldn't proof, that they had HK Dollar to pay the bill. Now the more affluent visitors are disliked because they 'flaunt money'. Go figure, you can decide by yourself where the problems lie.
 written by Jimbo, January 26, 2012
HKers look down on Mainlanders, Canadians look down on HKers, Americans look down on Canadians, British look down on Americans, French look down on British, Germans look down on French, Russians look down on Germans, Mainlanders look down on Russians...
So, what's the point?
written by Dean Ooi, January 26, 2012
There is some truth in what the professor said. If the offenders were Hong Kongers, or a foreigner, would that HK gentleman still be so bold and ready to press the emergency brake? Would he not be scared of the reprisal? He did so because the woman and child were obviously from China and could not even speak Cantonese. The professor said that HKongers are subservient to foreigners but act like bullies to mainland Chinese. Of course, he shouldn't have generalized. Not all Hong Kongers are bullies but those who are tend to stand out and make a bad name for everyone else. All Hong Kong Chinese came from China or were Chinese before Britain seized HK by force.
A lot of the rancor results from different political beliefs. But both capitalism and communism have their good and bad points. Just look at the West. If capitalism works, the West would not be in the situation it is in today. There is no absolute freedom and excessive human rights will lead to chaos and disharmony. China has done well in many ways. She needs improvements in many areas. Give them time. No regime can last forever if it continues to overlook the welfare of the people. Finally, let me quote a poem from Cao Zhi, the younger son of Cao Cao of the Three-Kingdom: 煮豆燃豆萁, 豆在釜中泣 本是同根生, 相煎何太急? The stalks of the bean plant is used to cook the beans, In the pot, the beans are crying. They are both from the same roots, Why be in a hurry to slaughter each other? May the Chinese realize their roots and learn to cherish and love one another. No one will respect us if we don't first respect ourselves.
 written by M5power, January 26, 2012
To Wahaha:
Be careful about personal attacks. This is not the mainland where people will be silenced by intimidation and threats. It only goes to show how uncivilized and backward you are. If you want to refute the author's argument, use rational argument to do so. But so far that clearly seems to be beyond your ability...
written by M5power, January 26, 2012
To Malaysian Chinese:
Before attacking A. Poon for trying to export "Western values", do note that democracy and human rights are regarded as universal rights by many non-Western countries. The Arab revolution in part was striving for democracy, the desire of people themselves. It is only authoritarian and insecured regimes such as the one in Beijing who would denounce democracy and human rights as western values. Your attacks reveals that you are an insecured little dictator.
written by M5power, January 26, 2012
To Annoymously:
Where does A. Poon say she is a British colonial? Have you even read the article before launching your attack? HK people do not regard themselves as British colonials. They see themselves as ethnically and culturally Chinese. BUT, they do not accept the political values of the CCP. This might be news for you, but being a Chinese does not mean accepting the values of the CCP. Get that through your thick skull.
written by M5power, January 26, 2012
Julius:
Where on earth did A. Poon said Hong Kong did not belong to China?? This is the problem with so many mainland citizens. Hong Kong has a unique culture different from the mainland. That is a FACT. That does not mean Hong Kongers want to seperate from China. Threatening HK with Mainland values will only further harden Hong Kongers' values. Accept diversity of Hong Kong culture and that will help China in the long run.
written by Wahaha, January 26, 2012
MSpower,
Who threat whom? 杀掉两亿中国人才有自由民主制度 http://blog.boxun.com/hero/201006/zhouyahui/11_1.shtml Enjoy.
written by Wahaha, January 26, 2012
If you want to refute the author's argument, use rational argument to do so. But so far that clearly seems to be beyond your ability...
****************************************** 87% of people in mainland think China is on right track, that is over 1.1 billion people. how about AS hires one of them? Oh, I see, it is beyond you ability to understand the true meaning of free speech ...
written by Malaysia Chinese, January 26, 2012
True blue democracy, human rights, rule of law etc are universally acclaimed virtues- I totally agree. Having said that though, such values as espoused by the west are far far from being their original ideal. One must expose the hypocrisy of the west politicising such sacred virtue into political tool with only one geopolitical objective: using such fine ideal as a political weapon to undermine or to upstage their geopolitical nemesis or strategic competitors. In fact, almost everyone who are politically savvy know the game well & convenient enough of using such technique to overthrow their political enemies while the moment they gain power they will revert back to becoming the same oppressor as their predecessor. True blue democracy, human right etc do not exist & the west know it too well. A gradual democratisation which aims to tailor-suit the local condition shall be a better & preferred model. China is doing just that for all you care to know.
written by Wahaha, January 26, 2012
.....do note that democracy and human rights are regarded as universal rights by many non-Western countries. .....
*********************************** They are not universal. They are universal now because that is what the rich and journalists want, and they control the information. I will list 4 fundamental problems of current western understanding of democracy and freedom : (1)The coexistence of absolute democracy and absolute human right is a paradox. Democracy, simply speaking, is major rule, minority must respect the decisions of majority. Human right means that minority don’t have to be submissive to majority. They contradict to each other. So for them to coexist, there must be compromises, that is almost impossible unless the people are worry-free and government is rich. If there is no compromise, government will fail to “deliver”. So this paradox explain to phenomena : one, democracy usually carry out much better in developed countries than in developing country; two, democracy (and human right) doesn’t deliver. Therefore ABSOLUTE democracy and ABSOLUTE human right are NOT universal, as they need certain condition to coexist.
written by Wahaha, January 26, 2012
(2)We, human being are the most intelligent livings on earth, but the understanding of democracy and human right oversimplify human society, it basically describe human society with only 3 variables : people, government and power. That is ridiculous, you cant even clearly describe a society of chimpanzees with only 3 variables.
The big problem for this is that it completely dismisses the difference among people : the rich vs the poor, the hard working people vs lazy bones, the good citizens and criminals, etc. With such understanding, “Power to the people” is utterly misleading. If we divide power into 4 categories : Controlling nature resource, controlling capital, controlling information, controlling individuals ; and we divide people into the following categories : government, the rich, the media and journalists, the hard working people, the criminals, the parasites who want to live on others. I don’t think I have to say much, you can see that with the oversimplified understanding, the slogan “Power to the people” is in the vicinity of nonsense.
written by Wahaha, January 26, 2012
(3) Absolute democracy and absolute human right are against science.
In a country with limited resources, scientific management is crucial. But, science is in the hands of very few people, otherwise most people would becomes scientists. So absolute democracy almost surely will prevent government making plan scientifically; even government does make plans scientifically, the principle of human right will prevent the plans carried out as planed. The most significant example is that almost all the democratic countries are in debt, and this is after 2 decades of development. Were the policy-makes in democratic countries more stupid than those in China ? obviously not In India, people complain that government has no long term plans, Are Indian more stupid than Chinese ? I don’t think so. Nearly 10% of NASA engineers are Indians, and their success in US is obvious. But when every “activist” has a say on planning, scientifically planning is impossible.
written by Wahaha, January 26, 2012
(4) Absolute freedom is against humanity.
In a society, usually, the more help a group of people need, the less power they have; the less help a group of people need, the more power they have. Absolute freedom, in real world, means that people can get as much as they want, with their power. The result is terrible, as it means that the more you need help, the later you will get help, and the the people who need help most are the last ones who get help. ***************************************************** There is no perfect understanding of human being, there is no perfect political system, we have to admit it. For each theory, for each system, we MUST ACCEPT ITS FLAWS to move forward. It is foolish to claim something is universal while it is self-contradict, oversimplified, anti-science and anti-humanity. IT IS THE BALANCE WE NEED TO FOCUS ON, NOT THE PERFECTNESS.
written by Wahaha, January 26, 2012
I also like to add that human society is not about 0 vs 1, either North-Korean style vs Western democracy.
The system now in China is not 0, like North Korea, of course it is not democratic either. It is something in between. If you ask chinese in mainland, I believe most of them will tell you that the system has serious problems ( especially in my opinion, there is no guarantee that the government will work for people in the future and there is no peaceful way to get new government.), but there are also serious problems in western democracy, which will cause serious problems in China and Chinese people now dont want to take that path. In other word, the alternative doesn't sound attractive, especially after 2008 financial crisis. So deal with it, respect the choice of the people in mainland.
written by Wahaha, January 26, 2012
and dont come back with some comments like "chinese people dont have choice."
During the time of jasmine revolution in Arab world, not even a dozen gathered together for the protest in Beijing while hundreds of thousands of people protested in Nanjing against a government's construction plan.
written by M5power, January 27, 2012
I see Wahahaha. Calling me a moron is just so "intelligent" of you. What the hell are you going on about "absolute democracy" or "absolute freedom"? Let's get the facts straight. We are not talking about absolute freedom and democracy. We are talking about BASIC human rights and democracy, something Mainland doesn't HAVE. It's funny isn't it? It is only in a democratic country like the US or UK where incredible innovation and invention occurred. The airplane was invented in the US. Google and Apple was invented in the US. The jet engine was invented in the UK. What has China invented over the past 100 years that has a decisive impact on modern society? NOTHING.
China cannot innovate and create cutting-edge invention with it's current system of governance. If you want people to respect the choice of mainlanders, let them first respect Hong Kongers too. As in learning to stand in line, not peeing and sh*ting in the public and basically learn some manners.
written by M5power, January 27, 2012
Do not try to impose Mainland values on Hong Kong, wahahaha. As in dictatorship, censorship and brutality of the police. Mainlanders may not like it, but Hong Kongers respect the rule of law, something mainlanders don't.
Attacking core Hong Kong's values will only harden Hong Kong people defending such values. Calling Hong Kongers dog or say "cantonese" is not a true Chinese language like that moronic Peking university prof will only further divide Hkers and Mainlanders. It only shows the ignorance of the professor and how uncivilized mainlanders are in the eyes of Hong Kongers. Cantonese after all is an ancient dialect most similiar to the one used in Tang dynasty. How do you expect Hong Kongers to respect and engage in rationale dialogue with someone like that Peking prof?!!
written by Wahaha, January 27, 2012
We are talking about the BASIC human right and democracy
****************************** LOL, What right are you talking about, if you dont mind? Is pooping in front of other people's house part of human right because it is public place? You can say whatever you like to the mirror in your bathroom, nobody give a damn. But when you try to talk to public and try to shape public opinions, you are no longer an individual, you are public servant. Therefore, like government officer, you are obligated to give public the whole picture, any intentionally misleading is an offense to public. Understood ? Democracy? can you tell us what power is to the people? Will the selected politicians sacrifice the rich's interest for ordinary people? You really think you get more money and benefit because you can protest? did you ever ask your favorite politicians whose money he cut so he had money for you? Did you ever think it might be the money that should be given to your wife or spent on your child's education ? Are you so "moron" to believe that the politicians you voted in will cut the money for the rich and corporation ?
written by Malaysia Chinese, January 27, 2012
1.BASIC human rights and democracy, something Mainland doesn't HAVE : you must have been deliberately blind NOT to have read the torrent of negative comments against the CCP on mainland websites & NOT noticed the kind of street protests against the authority. The Chinese authority, much like many rational Chinese around the world, will not tolerate attempts to "ruffle the feathers" so much so & let them degenerate into social upheavals because we know intuitively how precious stability is all about in a vast & diverse land like China. What China has achieved thus far is not through robbing & conquests but sheer hard work & struggle, quite unlike its imperialistic western peers. That makes it more treasure the fruits of its success.
2. It is only in a democratic country like the US or UK where incredible innovation and invention occurred : this is as silly as many Indians who insist that " so what if we are unable to measure up to China because at the end of the day we have demon-crazy". So, please go & "EAT" your demon-crazy when all chips are down, for God's sake! For innovations & inventions to flourish, it is not only what type of political system or social conditioning you have, stupid! It is what amount of inputs you have poured in in term of money, time , talent, effort & support from peers & government. There is an established Management Theory which says humans have hierarchy of needs. When one is hungry, without a roof over one's head, born in a land of war, chaos & poverty, he has no time & energy to think of all the lofty ideals as recreations, fine art, wine etc, let alone innovations & inventions. The west has acquired enough money to attract all the world's talents & brains to come up with your admired Apples i-phone this & I-pad that to awe you until your pans drops. Do not underestimate the Chinese though : we have proved savvy enough to upset all the established western standards to spring you surprises. Just give us time & we shall awe you until your jaws drop! 3. Google was invented by a Russian immigrant & Apple by a half-Syrian immigrant. Does the US care to acknowledge how many scientists & engineers it stole from Nazi Germany after WW2? 4.China cannot innovate and create cutting-edge invention with it's current system of governance : mark your lips, mate & I hope you can say this again in a decade from now - you shalt be forced to eat back your words, I guarantee you this! Remember this moron Gordon Chang? He said China will collapse many times over but he has consistently been humiliated & forced to "eat" back his words. I would love it that all the people in the western world possess this so-called " superiority syndrome" for it guarantees the west's fall quicker. The west simply has no history to fall back on for reference & it thinks it can dominate forever. Feng Shui turns round & round mate, you have your turn & others shall have theirs too. IF YOUR DEMON-CRAZY IS SO GOOD THAT IT CURES IT ALL, THEN PLEASE JUST "EAT" IT BUT JUST KEEP IT ON YOUR SIDE OF THE BARGAIN & LEAVE THE REST OF THE WORLD ALONE!
written by Wahaha, January 27, 2012
Dont try to impose mainland value to hong kong
****************************** What ? Didn't you call what you believe as some "universal" value? As China is part of universal, you obviously try to impose your value to mainland. When did a mainland Chinese try to teach you their value ? Let me tell you the difference of how you think and how I think with an example : How do you pick a high school for your child ? Teacher's education background or percentage of students entering great colleges, which one will you care more? You, care more about teacher's education background. I, care more about percentage of students entering great colleges Have I ever tried to teach you my way of selecting high school? Never. Have you consistently tried to convince that teacher's education background is the #1 critierial? Yes. Any question ?
written by Wahaha, January 27, 2012
Allow me to repeat:
You can say whatever you like to the mirror in your bathroom, nobody give a damn. But when you try to talk to public and try to shape public opinions, you are no longer an individual, you are public servant like government officer. Therefore, you are obligated to give public the whole picture, any intentionally misleading is an offense to public. That, is not part of your human right. Here in Asia sentinel, there is no pro-china blogger while over 1.1 billion Chinese think China is on the right track. That is an offense to the BASIC human right of those people in mainland, unless of course if bloggers like APoon have their mouths zipped about Mainland. Understood ?
written by M5power, January 27, 2012
I see what Wahahaha is trying to play at. What makes he assume he can speak on behalf of the 1.3 billion people on the mainland? Where is the statistics to show ALL 1.3 billion people on the mainland thinks China is on the right track? He is that classic crazed online nationalist bully. Trying to silence dissenting voices by his threatening tone. Well it won't work here.
"But when you try to talk to public and try to shape public opinions, you are no longer an individual, you are public servant like government officer. Therefore, you are obligated to give public the whole picture, any intentionally misleading is an offense to public"[ So according to your logic, that peking prof calling Hkers dogs is a representative of the central government? I see, so the CCP thinks Hkers are dogs eh? I have a feeling there are more mainland dogs than Hong Kong dogs however...
written by Wahaha, January 27, 2012
What make him think he can speak on behalf of 1.3 billion people.
***************************** I know such question would be raised, so I had a post for that, check for yourself.
written by Wahaha, January 27, 2012
Druing the time of jasmine revolution in Arab world, not even a dozen gathered together for the protest in Beijing while hundreds of thousands of people protested in Nanjing against a government's construction plan.
Any question ?
written by Wahaha, January 27, 2012
Explain what part of my comments leads to your conclusion that Kong is a representitive of CCP.
and yes, there are lot of dogs in Mainland who cant wait to see China becomes a colony again.
written by M5power, January 27, 2012
That's because the CCP crackdown on any open dissent, wahahaha. in HK, you won't get arrested for a peaceful protest. That doesn't mean they some don't want to...
Dogs? So glad we agree there are more dogs on the mainland than Hong Kong. But again, you fail to understand Hong Kong. We have a distinct identity, that does not mean we have a colonial mentality. We are Chinese, but it just happens many don't like the CCP. You see, being Chinese does not mean having to love the CCP. After all, the CCP was responsible for the destruction of many Chinese traditions during Mao's cultural revolution. But on the mainland no, there is no distinction. To be a patriot, you must be a loyal CCP member. I did'nt say Kong is a representative of the CCP, but by your logic, it would seem he is, let me use your own phrase: when you try to talk to public and try to shape public opinions, you are no longer an individual, you are public servant like government officer. Therefore, you are obligated to give public the whole picture, any intentionally misleading is an offense to public"[ Isn't Kong trying to shape public opinion here? Oh, I wonder than he is no longer an individual but a public servant of the CCP??
 written by Justin, January 27, 2012
I'm a "foreign devil" who has lived and worked on the mainland and Hong Kong and have Chinese friends in both areas.
But for a few comments, this argument is pathetic on both sides. Alice has made some good points. Many nouveau riche mainlanders with no sense of rule of law, good manners, sanitation (shitting and spitting and pissing in public), etc flock to Hong Kong for goods and services they can't get on the mainland. Conversely,many Hong Kongers flaunt their self-perceived more "civilivized" selves and wealth (how many HK men routinely take mainland mistresses?) on the mainland. Both of you are idiots. Face it though, mainlanders. With all it's problems, Hong Kong works daily better than any city on the mainland. People patiently stand in line, medical care is cheap and relatively easy and citizens don't excrete on the street, and its subway system is the best in Asia, save Japan. Hong Kong merchants can't be blamed though for catering to money vomiting mainlanders. It's the universal unholy chase for the almighty $/yuan, just as it is in Beijing, Shenzhen, Shanghai, Guangzhou.or even an obscure city such as Dandong. You can thank Deng Xiaoping for that. Alice has the freedom to say what she likes, something no mainlander can claim. You're all just human beings. Chinese or HK citizens by random accident of birth.No divine destiny. Just the result of sperm that happened to fight its way into an egg and fertilized. No more special or unique than me as an American or any other westerner or any other human. Learn to live with yourselves and others, respect differences and stop quarreling about them. You can both learn a lot from one another. I know I have..
written by Justin, January 27, 2012
written by Wahaha, January 27, 2012
Druing the time of jasmine revolution in Arab world, not even a dozen gathered together for the protest in Beijing while hundreds of thousands of people protested in Nanjing against a government's construction plan. Any question ? Yeah "Wahhaa." People in China are routinely harrassed and jailed for political protests, though the govt has loosened the leash when it comes to protests regarding civic matters, such as those against the construction projects. And it depends also on what "govt" you are talking about. Provincial and local smaller govts handle local unrest when it comes to nail house protests. Their reaction also often depends on how far they are from "the emperor"/Beijing and other factors. One has nothing to do with the other. People generally know there is no hope of any political change, though occasionally they can stop the developer's bulldozer. There is no modern tradition or method of political protest/objection in China. People are also more concerned about their immediate local problems. What makes you think they are different and why? That's the question. I look forward to your answer.
written by Wahaha, January 27, 2012
M5power,
What were you talking about ? Did you get my point ? Less than dozen showed up in the Jasmine walk in Beijing while hundreds of thousands showed up in Nanjing. And you are delusional that Chinese people gave a damn about "universal" value ?
written by Wahaha, January 27, 2012
Yeah "Wahhaa." People in China are routinely harrassed and jailed for political protests, though the govt has loosened the leash when it comes to protests regarding civic matters, such as those against the construction projects. And it depends also on what "govt" you are talking about.
*********************************************** Justin, Do you know what political protest is, huh ? Do you know what political prison is, huh ? People are called political prisoners because they want to change the system, hence threaten the interests of most powerful in the country. In your country, there are no political prisoners because there is no different political opinion. All of you have only one opinion, that is : get piece of government. (Do you know the difference between freedom and "get piece of government" ?) Don' t believe ? OK, try to enlighten us by saying something other than what your "free" media has told you ? Now, in case you don't know, a secretary in white house said something that she admired Mao for whatever reason, you know what happened ? even some congressman came out to force her to apologize. You are free? you have no clue what free speech is because you don't even have different opinions.
written by Wahaha, January 27, 2012
Justin,
It is ridiculous for you to talk about freedom of speech after the way western media reported the "protest" in London and OWS movement. understood? No protest (except OWS) in western world can be called political protest as they didn't aim at the most powerful in the country, the rich and corporations; none of them (except OWS) aimed to the system. OWS is different, it aimed at the rich and government. So you see the way how it has been reported by the rich-run media ? It is so naive, stupid and brainwashed to believe "Oh, I can bash government, therefore I am free."
written by Wahaha, January 27, 2012
To make you start thinking with your own brain, I give you an example :
In China, if a government officer is caught corruption, both he and the rich who bribed him will be thrown to jail or even sentenced to jail. In so-called "free" world, can you give me several examples that the rich were thrown to jail because of bribing, huh ? Political donation has been skyrocketed, why doesn't free media talk about it, huh ? Almost all the democratic country are deep in debt, why doesn't free media talk about it, huh ? Those asinine media blamed it on stupid government, then you just take it without thinking, right ? Have you ever thought that if this is the case (stupid government), then it means that the system routinely produce stupid governments, what is good about this great idiotic "democracy", huh? what is the point for Chinese to go after a system which routinely produce stupid government? Now use your own brain, say something with your own word, not some garbage by your media.
written by Wahaha, January 27, 2012
Here is an example your "free media" has turned blind eyes to :
Documentary film "Inside job" "A major theme is the pressure from the financial industry on the political process to avoid regulation, and the ways that it is exerted. One conflict discussed is the prevalence of the revolving door, whereby financial regulators can be hired within the financial sector upon leaving government and make millions." Quite funny your media didn't make it an issue, especially after the financial crisis. Don't you think ?
 written by sophia, January 28, 2012
For all the back and forth comments, I just want to say that I do enjoy riding in an MTR car that is clean without people snacking. It is good that someone would remind others when they break the rule. I do that regardless where people are from. Different societies have different norms. How this evolved into so many name-calling commentary is very sad. Yesterday riding on the MTR, a family of three mainlander tourists (parents with a little boy of 7 years old) got on the train at the CWB station. There were no vacant seats but this little boy came up between myself and my neighbor and shoved himself between us. I told him had he asked me politely, I would have given him my seat. Would he mind asking again? He didn't bother and hence I kept my seat. His parents didn't comment nor make any scene. My point was simply that his behavior was probably acceptable in other societies but not in HK and part of being a tourist is also to understand and experience values in a different society.
written by Justin, January 28, 2012
You asked: Do you know what political protest is, huh ?
Yes, In my youth I demonstrated against American war in Vietnam but was never arrested. Currently, the Occupy Wallstreet movment is the latest example of that spirit. Do you know what political prison is, huh ? Yeah. A "black hotel" in China. People are called political prisoners because they want to change the system, hence threaten the interests of most powerful in the country. Duh. Thanks for stating the obvious. In so-called "free" world, can you give me several examples that the rich were thrown to jail because of bribing, huh ? Yes. See later comment. Political donation has been skyrocketed, why doesn't free media talk about it, huh ? (Correction: the correct way to say this is "Politcal donations have skyrocketed,. so why doesn't the free media talk about it, huh?.) They do. See later comment. Hey Wahhah, Huh, yourself, big guy. How ignorant are you? You should read some English language websites, starting with the New York Times and going to smaller media. Yes, I'm ashamed to say we have poiitical prisoners in the USA. Have you ever heard of Leonard Peltier? He's an American Indian impisoned for allegdly killing FBI agents during a protest in the 1970s. Start googling with him and look forther. You'll find some more. Political donations are a constant story in US media. Do some googling and you'll find out. It's not a secret. As for the "rich" beging thrown in jail, here's thet latest example. Bernie Madoff. He's a former billionare who ripped of hundreds of investors and is paying the price now. There are many others like him also in prison. We don't execute them, though, like you do in China. http://www.esquire.com/the-sid...ail-031209 Happy reading, my friend. You don't know squat. But you seem eager to learn more. When you do some research, get back to me. Love and kisses, Justin
written by Justin, January 28, 2012
Hey Wahhaha hee-hee hiccup,
As for "Inside Job" being turned a "blind eye to," here are the facts: "The film was screened at the 2010 Cannes Film Festival in May and won the 2010 Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature" An Oscar and Cannes acclaim are hardly "blind." LIke I suggested before, do some research before you shoot off your mouth. You points are otherwise ignorant.. Best wishes for the Lunar New Year, hugs and kisses, Justin
written by Wahaha, January 28, 2012
Justin,
let us cut it short. Were Americans angry at government's mistreating extremists? No. Were Americans angry at soldier's peeing on dead taliban bodys? No. Why? because they are doing harm to USA and american peoples. Does US have the right to "mistreat" those who try to "TAKE USA DOWN" ? Obviously, American people think so. (don't tell me American people are ashame of that, OK?) So do Chinese. So please tell us who in mainland are trying to "TAKE CHINA DOWN", according to Jon Huntsman?
written by Wahaha, January 28, 2012
An Oscar and Cannes acclaim are hardly "blind." LIke I suggested before, do some research before you shoot off your mouth. You points are otherwise ignorant..
********************************* LOL, Who would pay $8 to watch a documentary film? Now has been 3 years since the breakout of financial crisis, any big tycoon was thrown to jail for that? You know what capitalism is? capitalism means where capital goes, power goes. Understood ? Look at 90s Russia, look at India, look at the current west world(see what they did after financial crises) Do you know the difference between "Taking power away from government" and "Power to the people"? China is not democratic, but yours is not democratic either. ( How on earth could it possible that the result turns out like this when Power was in the hand of people?) China is not free-speech, neither is yours. Like I said before, you judge by paper, Chinese judge by results. So show us some results of "Power to the people". Again, don's use some crap from journalists, most of them have mouth bigger than butt. Like this APoon who urged government to " take necessary action", but speechless when I asked us to show us how to take necessary action without offending individual right.
written by Justin, January 28, 2012
Hey Whahaha hee hee,
Get your facts straight before you ask these questions. But I will try to answer them despite your crude way of asking. What "extremists" were Americans not angry about being mistreated? Some are, some aren't.. "Freedom of speech" (not "subverting State secrets") is part of our constitutional rights. I have no idea what extremists you are talking about. Some Americans were angry about the Taliban peeing incident. Some thought it was okay. . There is no unanimous opinon on that. To put it in perspective, "war is hell." I have talked with two Chinese men who fought in the Chinese-Vietnam war who also admitted to doing bad things to Vietnamese people at that time, just as Americans did at Mi Lai. (Look it up). Again, your ignorance of human behavior and lack of internatinal information is apparent. What are you? A 50-center working for Chinese Global Times? Pathetic. No, the USA has no right to "mistreat" those who try to take it down. But sometimes it does. That's the way of the world. Just as Chna tries to take down those who "subvert state secrets." I have no idea what you are trying to say about former US ambassador and presidential candidate Jon Huntsman. Your comment/question was incoherent. I'm not a supporter or fan of Huntsman, but he is no threat to China on any level. Get some persepective and languge skills before you start shooting off your comments I suggest you spend your time and money on English lessons if you want ot argue these points in English. Best wishes for the New Year, Justin
written by Wahaha, January 28, 2012
Let me repeat :
please tell us who in mainland are trying to "TAKE CHINA DOWN", according to Jon Huntsman? show us some results of "Power to the people".
written by Justin, January 28, 2012
I paid 6 rmb to watch a pirate DVd of "Inside Job" in China. Captalism at its best. The seller and the company that copied it both made money and I got it an inexpensive price. I love your country for that. Thank you, Deng Xiaping.
A result of Power to the People? Sure, that's easy. The end of the US involvement in the Vietnam War. The election of President Obama, more recently. The conviction of Bernie Madoff. Many more I don't have time to cite here, but it still works sometimes (not always) in the USA. And I politely disagree. USA does have free speech, especially compared to China. We aren't harrassing folks like Ai Weiwei, Liu Xiaobo etc. Though as I mentioned before, sadly we do have political prisoners and information about them is widely available for anyone who cares to know more. Not the case in China.
written by Justin, January 28, 2012
PS: Sorry to miss this repeated point late re:Huntsman. But as I said earlier, "I have no idea what you are trying to say about former US ambassador and presidential candidate Jon Huntsman. Your comment/question was incoherent. I'm not a supporter or fan of Huntsman, but he is no threat to China on any level,"
If you can give me a full Huntsman quote with context and source, I may be able to answer your question.. You really need to work on your English language/debating skills. They are really pitiful at the moment, though you sound as if you have some potential to improve. If you are in Beijing, I'd be happy to coach you.
 written by j sam, January 28, 2012
APoon needs to look deeper into what's been happening in Hong Kong before jumping to her questionable conclusions. First, that D & G protest. You really think it was all about what you read in the newspaper? Have you seen those provocative Benetton advertisements? Specially designed to ruffle feathers and draw attention to the brand?
Second, “repressed fury over the dire consequences of Hong Kong's too laxly managed border”? I cross back and forth often and I can see mainlanders can't just slip in and out that easily. But I'm sure you don't mean that. What you are really saying is that too many mainlanders are being allowed into Hong Kong. Were you here during the Asian financial crisis? If you were, did you see the many, many shops that were boarded up? Did you know that many restaurants closed shop? The property market collapsed and the middle class which had invested their savings in real estate were down on their knees? China introduced a few measures to help Hong Kong and the one measure that made an immediate difference was allowing mainlanders to travel on their own. They are still propping up the economy. Surely the right to travel at one's own desire is one of your cherished universal rights. I have no quarrel with that. But then you cannot turn around and tell the mainlander: your entry into Hong Kong must be restricted. There are more than 1 billion people on the mainland; the numbers of those who can afford to visit Hong Kong and see other parts of the world are growing by the minute. Do you want their money or you want them restricted to organised groups like before 2003? Sure, the mainlanders can be be very upsetting with their boorish behaviour. Many of them are country bumpkins like those from Japan, South Korea and even the poorer parts of Europe and Latin America in another time. They are country folk, what do you expect? They will change and they will be more sophisticated but, hey, there's over a billion of them. It's going to be a long time before you see the end of the boorish queue. Singaporeans are also complaining about their uncouth ways. So are New Yorkers. But go to Harrod's in London; they're putting up 100 UnionPay points so that mainlanders can use their credit cards and employing 70 Putonghua-speaking sales staff. Selfridges is not far behind. Inflation in Hong Kong? You've been away in Canada all these years. You've forgotten all about HKD being pegged to USD. For better or worse we're going to ride with USD for some time to come. Yes, the average Hongkonger is being dispossessed. But not by the mainlanders. It's the property developers who are the culprits. You know that better than anyone else, having worked with them and written a book about them. They're doing it with the active support of the Hong Kong government. And it's going to get worse when that “pig” Henry Tang gets to be Numero Uno, with the full backing of Li Ka-shing.
written by Wahaha, January 28, 2012
I have no idea what you are trying to say about former US ambassador and presidential candidate Jon Huntsman. Your comment/question was incoherent.
********************************** Justin, If you dont know what that means, you have no right or enough knowledge to talk about issues in China. By the way, Madoff offended billlionaires and millionaires. How dared he ? 
written by Wahaha, January 28, 2012
Oh, about "Power to people", what I was asking is what it will put people's tables.
We all know that US didnt have money for Katria victims. What about the victims in last year's tornado disaster ? you dont know, I dont know, the "free" media doesnt give a damn. Quite funny that one of the worst tyrannies (according to your media) had money for milions of victims in earthquake. Somhow, your media convinced you people that all of these can be put together rationally, didn't it ?
written by Wahaha, January 28, 2012
We aren't harrassing folks like Ai Weiwei, Liu Xiaobo etc.
******************************************************* ****** Ha, then why was the secretary in white house harassed simply for one sentence ? A senator was forced to apologize because he yelled "You lie" to Obama? Well, imagine he had said something "F@#$ you, USA", like Ai Weiwei did (do you know that ?), How would he be treated ? You were badly poisoned by your media.
written by Wahaha, January 28, 2012
Jon Huntsman, former US Ambassador to China, made following comments in candidate debate :
So what should we be doing? We should be reaching out to OUR ALLIES and CONSTITUENCIES WITHIN CHINA. They're called the young people. They're called the internet generation. There are 500 million internet users in China. And 80 million bloggers. And they are bringing about change, the likes of which is gonna TAKE CHINA DOWN. While we have an opportunity to go up and win back our economic manufacturing muscles.
 written by nulle, January 29, 2012
now mainland chinese urinating on MTR trains. see below
http://the-sun.on.cc/cnt/news/..._039.html what's next, mainland chinese defecating on MTR trains? or mainland chinese openly having sex on the MTR trains before anything is done about it?
written by Wahaha, January 29, 2012
Who knows ?
Maybe he was paid to urinate in MTR ... by a hongkonger.
written by Justin, January 29, 2012
Hey, Wahaha,
Your comment about the mainlander being paid to urinate by a HK'r is actually pretty funny. Nice one, seriously. You do have a sense of humor. That's good to know. The "you lie" senator was forced to apologize because he was inexcusably rude. He was not "revealing state secrets" or advocating overthrowing the government. He's also a politician (like Huntsman, like Obama so maybe got him a little voter support for the future. He was also widely criticized in the national media. AThanks for the huntsman quote. Never saw it, but I'm sure a few jobless Americans in Iowa or wherever he said it were happy to hear it. Every election year, many US politicians say stupid stuff about China. It wins a few votes, but really does nothing more and it's all forgotten by the time they are either elected, re-elected or lose. Taking it seriously is not the thing to do. It's part of the political game played there. You know, I assume, that Huntsman dropped out of the GOP presidential candidate race. So it didn't help him anyway.
 written by lolz, January 29, 2012
As a mainlander who have lived in North America and across various Asian nations including HK and Singapore, I have to agree with some of what Poon said regarding the behavior of some mainlanders. At the same time, I find the author Poon heavily prejudiced, snobby, and I strongly disagree with her on the solution to the issue.
First, the way some of the mainlanders behave in public places is simply unacceptable. However even in large cities within China like Shanghai, the locals complain about the rude behavior of people from "country-side" (which is everywhere else in China other than Beijing) in public places. The complaints are similar in nature with how HKers are complaining about mainlanders, and how people in foreign countries complain about Chinese in general including people from HK and Taiwan. There have been numerous comments about how nationalist Canadians treated the coming waves of HKers from pre-1997, I am sure Poon had experienced this herself as well in Canada. It's not a pleasant thing to experience for both the local Canadians and the new visitors. Looking at Chinese Canadians today though, clearly many have assimilated and learned to behave in more accordance with the locals. Clearly Chinese are capable of changing overtime. As the case with Canadian Chinese today, the solution to solve this issue is not to bash them and/or ban mainlanders altogether as Poon is doing/suggesting, but to educate them properly about what is acceptable to the locals. Poon is completely off the base about how the only people in HK benefit from the incoming stream of mainland visitors are the shop owners of high end products. The reality is that the average HKer benefit tremendously from the mainland laborers as across multiple industries such as the construction, auto service, etc. Many HK eateries such as the noodle shop which Poon gave an example have as many mainland customers as native HKers. Lastly, I find it odd the way how Poon sees herself as some kind of liberal democracy advocate despite how close minded and prejudiced she is. Having lived in the US for a while, I find the best thing about the democracy being how open people are to accept others who are different. Americans have have difficult cultures, backgrounds, and ideals, but most are willing to make others understand their point of view and some try to consider other people's point of view. I find this quality imperative for a successful democracy. Unfortunately many Chinese lack this quality, including Poon herself.
 written by Lark13, January 29, 2012
I applaud Alice Poon’s forthrightness in articulating how she was troubled by Hong Kong’s changes, visit after visit. I took several readings on the article. But, I still failed to detect Alice’ tone did make any human right or racially discriminating inference. Alice merely stated her observations and perceived reality.
written by Wahaha, January 30, 2012
Justin, this will be my last post on this thread. If you like to continue the topic, you can go to "Hidden Harmonies".
What Ai Weiwei and Liu Xiaobo have been doing in China is 'TAKE CHINA DOWN", which is confirmed beyond any doubt by Jon Huntsman comment. The momentum of democratic movement after 6.4 was very strong but suddenly died down after the collapse of Soviet Unions. What Chinese saw was "Democracy takes superpower down". As I said before in this thread, Chinese judge by result, not by absolutely defined right or wrong. It is OK to get rid of CCP, but "TAKE CHINA DOWN" is unacceptable to Chinese people. In ANY country, people don't give a damn on how their government treats or mistreats those who try to take their country down. ************************ Anita Dunn was fired from white house one month after her comment. Imagine what would happened to someone who becomes a threat to the system ? McCarthyism. Just look at the way how government treated OWS movement, a movement didn't aim at government, but the rich and corporations. After 2008 financial crisis, there was strong anti-WS sentiment, did you feel it from your media ? such sentiment was suppressed by your "free" media. If you ask a mid-class indian why India is way behind China, he will tell you it is because India is democratic, you can see it from their comments. But of course, such voices are censored by "free" media. This AS forum is just one of those examples how "free" media suppresses the voice of people : No blogger on AS represents the voices of 1.3 billion Chinese people. Making things worse, the pro-democratic people in mainland are even less tolerate of different opinions than CCP is. ************************ I gave the reason why US is not democratic, and I listed 4 fundamental flaws in western democracy and human right. The flaws, especially #3, are rapidly weakening US. The only way to avoid this downward spiral is American people realize the flaws in their system, but this is impossible if media and journalists control the minds of American people and what politicians can say and can not say. Note : realizing the flaws in system doesn't mean you have to get rid of whole system, or turn into an authoritarian system, like asinine media has brainwashed people. *********************** On "free" media : The common enemy and bunch bag to media and journalists is government, because only government can possibly regulate them. Media and journalists are always right because they don't have to solve any problem, all they need is a big mouth. If comparing a country to a courtroom, what media and journalists want is being the judge in the court (the so-called "freedom of speech"). A judge can't be challenged , doesn't have to solve any real world problem and never wrong. They are well respected because they call each other "well respected" and born "honored". (how many time Larry King married?) Every time they enter the room, you have to stand up, even president Obama. Your voices will not be heard by public unless it is valuable to them. (OWS) No politician dare to say anything they don't like, otherwise his political career is over ************************ I like to end my post with the following: "If I read the temper of our people correctly, we now realize as we have never realized before our interdependence on each other; that we can not merely take but we must give as well; that if we are to go forward, we must move as a trained and loyal army willing to sacrifice for the good of a common discipline, because without such discipline no progress is made, no leadership becomes effective. We are, I know, ready and willing to submit our lives and property to such discipline, because it makes possible a leadership which aims at a larger good. This I propose to offer, pledging that the larger purposes will bind upon us all as a sacred obligation with a unity of duty hitherto evoked only in time of armed strife. With this pledge taken, I assume unhesitatingly the leadership of this great army of our people dedicated to a disciplined attack upon our common problems."
 written by Michael O, January 30, 2012
what a truly awful piece of "journalism".
Alice you make a tenuous connection between the closure of a traditional store (nothing new there - been happening for two decades or more) and mainlanders, and then proceed to apply sweeping generalisations - not only against mainlanders, but also against HK people. It appears your conclusions are drawn from nationalistic online forums rather than through speaking with people in HK, as you only visit once a year (I wonder if you still claimed your 6K bonus though?) This is like taking Global Times' editorials as representative of all mainland opinion. I agree that HK people are feeling emasculated. But mainlanders are the scapegoats. The easy targets. The fault lies with the elites - political and business. Of course, the elites are glad for locals to vent online or take to the streets outside D&G as that keeps them (the elites) out of harm's way. Let's face it, if the HK govt wanted to stop the "flood" of mainlanders, it could do at a stroke simply by imposing restrictions on travel, residency and home purchases. Of course this is not going to happen. I think what disturbs me most about this article - and is something I have seen a lot of in recent weeks - is that is stinks of the low grade racism that we are used to seeing in the UK: something is wrong? Blame the foreigners. Both you and Asia Sentinel should be ashamed for publishing this ill-thought out, unbalanced, poorly researched and inflammatory article. AS - next time you need an article on HK, how about commissioning someone who actually lives there? Michael Chugani wrote a decent piece in today;s SCMP. Real journalism, you see, not right wing hate mail.
written by APoon, January 30, 2012
Presumably critics of this blogpost read traditional Chinese. This is an article written by a Hong Kong student commenting on Hong Kong people's gain and loss from the eight years of receiving mainland tourists:-
http://www.hkej.com/template/blog/php/blog_details.php?blog_posts_id=79897
 written by Emilianna, January 31, 2012
@Wahaha
There's a multitude of Chinese run media outlets reporting from the CCP's perspective every single day with a budget of millions. And you're going to bitch about one person stating their observations? Are you joking or just mentally retarded? And an individual talking to the public is NOT a public servant. I'm afraid you've become so used to consuming state-run media instead of an independent press. So if you want a "pro-China" news outlet, just turn to the CCP run media giants who blackmail other satellite companies from even letting alternative perspectives like NTDTV at having a *chance* to broadcast. Capeesh?
written by Emilianna, January 31, 2012
@Malaysia Chinese:
I hope you know that free speech allows even you, the right to make ignorant comments on a site because you disagree with someone. THAT is what free speech is. EVERYONE has a RIGHT to vocally disagree with anyone without the threat of being jailed or tortured. Regarding that depressing post about democracy being a "western ideal". That is utterly ridiculous. If you don't want an arranged marriage, why would you not want to elect your own government officials? I don't understand why concepts like free speech and human rights has to be automatically associated with the "west". Is South America not part of the "west"? You can't lump half the continent into a simplistic label. Has your CCP brethren brainwashed you to have such a warped Pavlovian response? Freedom and human rights is universal, no matter where you live. No one has a right to tell you what you can or cannot write about. "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Furthermore, your arguments are disingenuous in ignoring the many violent events in China's own past. If you really are Chinese, ask your parents or relatives what happened in the 60s and 70s. Who's the celebrated genius who put forward their brilliant plans to "modernize China"? And how many people starved to death as a result? How many people literally got beaten to death for just disagreeing with the red army? How many millions Chinese escaped their imminent deaths? You can't just use other country's history and at the same time ignoring your own.
 written by mike ng, January 31, 2012
This commentary is filled with mainlanders pretending to be HKers, many of whom I suspect are the same insecure nationalist crowd that crawls all over China-related sites, like Wahaha and co.
One does not need to be a colonialist or "whitewashed" to see that many of the stereotypes regarding mainlanders are very much true. The richer look down on the poor. Would you go to Shanghai and call them traitors for looking down on migrant workers? Snooty, maybe. But treason? How many rural migrant workers would you allow into your city, if you were an urban Chinese? Prejudices exist between many parts of China, it is only your hypocrisy to single out Hong Kong on what I suspect is a branch of xenophobic and conservative sentiments.
written by Michael O, January 31, 2012
alice:
Read and be informed - I know I do! Alice, I don't know much about you, so have no idea if you are a journalist or just a hired opinion, but please tell me you are not cherry picking online blogposts to support you prejudices? how about see and be informed. I find that one works better.
 written by Guy Fawkes, January 31, 2012
@GuangdongRen
Your argument makes absolute no sense. Exactly which democracy has caused inequality? I know Nazi Germany wasn't a democracy. Neither is N. Korea. Or Saudi Arabia. Inequality will always exist regardless of form of government. Some people are born with more intelligence, beauty, creativity, poverty, poor health. But everyone deserves an equal chance to be heard, to survive, and to express oneself without retribution. The only way minorities gained any civil rights at all in America was through public protest, marches, sit-ins. @Wahaha It's a miracle you're even allowed to still comment on these posts. Your use of hyperbolic language is disturbing and very similar to the tones taken by the American right-wing movement; immediately dismissing anyone you disagree with by name-calling. Incredibly immature. I don't know how you expect to conduct any kind of business with this sort of attitude, especially in a global economy. I'm really sick and tired of overzealous nationalists painting continents and nationalities with a broad stroke of a brush. Discrimination against anyone based on their origins are wrong, but so is polluting the public places. Get past your racism, prejudice, ethnocentrism. If you can't even conduct a civilized discourse or even talk to someone because they think differently from you without being overemotional and cursing outright, then I feel sorry for you.
written by Guy Fawkes, January 31, 2012
@Wahaha
You need to get out of the bubble and learn to read an English newspaper (or just read English). Your comments are extremely naive. First off, any torture of war prisoners was treated as a *scandal* and a national embarrassment. It was publicly protested and thoroughly debated about. Endless debates for months on end. Americans tend to do that. Disagree and argue publicly among themselves. It's call freedom of press and speech. Without freedom of press, none of us would have even found out about the torture cases. Were Americans angry at government's mistreating extremists? No. - WRONG. Many Americans denounce torture. Were Americans angry at soldier's peeing on dead taliban bodys? No. -WRONG. That was considered another scandal. The people who did that were punished. Why? because they are doing harm to USA and american peoples. Does US have the right to "mistreat" those who try to "TAKE USA DOWN" ? - NO THEY DO NOT. They should get a fair trial and if they did not, you can bet people were clamoring for it. Obviously, American people think so. (don't tell me American people are ashame of that, OK?) - Do you actually know any American people? I highly doubt it. Extremely ignorant. It seems that you've never even set foot in America, or read any American paper, or watched any American political debate. It's very sad that you have never even set foot in the country. Yet you already came to your own conclusions about 300 million people. I feel sorry for you. Why did you even learn English? Just to be able to post insults on the web so you don't have to get off your computer and actually go outside and travel abroad and shake hands with your already decided enemy? Please do your research before putting down 300 million people you never even met. I'm not wasting one more precious keystroke on ignorant people.
written by lolz, January 31, 2012
Specifically around the topics of Yellow Peril and The Chinese Exclusion Act.
What APoon is doing, namely blaming Mainlanders for the downfall of HK is nothing new. At one point in American history, European immigrants in the US feared the same thing of Asians and people specifically of Chinese descent, enough so that that an actual law was passed to prevent Chinese from immigrating to the US. The arguments against the Chinese immigrants back then has plenty of similarities with some of what APoon and other HK nationalists are saying about "mainlanders" today (the notion that Chinese are law breakers, unhygienic, uncivilized, unable to assimilate, took locals jobs, threats to the local culture/people, etc.). As the result of the Yellow Peril literature and the Chinese Exclusion act, Chinese Americans were targets of beatings and direct racism. They were also far slower to assimilate to the local culture because of their exclusion by other local citizens, thus self fulfilling the myth that they are unable to assimilate. Even today, Asian Americans in general are still viewed upon as "foreign" by many Americans although they have been in the US for generations, partly due to to this history. Fortunately, Chinese exclusion act is viewed now by most as bygone of a racist era, a dark and shameful period in US history. Sadly, APoon wants to recreate this scenario, except this time around the target is not all Chinese but a segment of the Chinese people. To me this is just sad.
 written by Alice Poon is Prof Kong of Hong Kong, January 31, 2012
I suggest Alice Poon in her next life become Chief Executive of HK, build a "great wall" and ban all outsiders, all capital inflow so that we she can enjoy her wonton noodle and old-style HK biscuits forever. Oh yes ... we might as well ban the Gwei Lows, some of whom are always drunk, loud and puking and peeing around Lan Kwai Fong. Oh yes, ban all 1.3 billion Chinese because a few of them ate cup noodels on MTR (and got yelled at by a few even more obnoxious Hong Kongers whom Alice maliciously forgot to describe in detail).. ban all who are not Hong Kong cantonese speaking. What an idiot and bigot ... just like that idiotic Prof Kong. I'm a HKer and thankfully Alice Poon is not the majority. BTW, I'm a total idiot myself for wasting my breadth on her ... god such a Hong Kong Taliban!
written by Wahaha, February 01, 2012
Guy Fawke,
Again, blame everything on government, dont you ? Actually, do you have any different opinion other than what media has told you. ? None, because that is all you know. Let me give you an example: couple years ago, because of huge flood, US government broke the levee and destroyed thousand of families and lands. Show me how on earth it was NOT an issue of human right. Now give some examples that media and journalists blamed the problems on the system BEFORE talking about free speech. Talking about bubble, do you know the difference between Marxism and communism?
written by Wahaha, February 01, 2012
Emilianna,
Please stop reading one used tissue after another one again and again. I said before, Chinese judge by fact, not some wonderful theories. For example, Russia was deep in debt at the end of 1990s, but paid back all the debt and had surplus after Putin took over. Why ? For example, why are almost all the democratic countries deep in debt after 20 years of economic developments. Why? I listed 4 fundamental flaws of western democracy and freedom, WHICH CAN BE USED TO EXPLAIN FACTS. I really don't give a damn about the blah blah out of your mouth or anyone's mouth. EXPLAIN THE FACTS. Understood ?
written by Wahaha, February 01, 2012
Here are the 4 fundamental flaws of western democracy and freedom, which explain the facts.
You may disagree, you may think it is garbage, but unless you can give reasonable explanation, all you said is no different from another piece of used tissue. ******************************** (1)The coexistence of absolute democracy and absolute human right is a paradox. Democracy, simply speaking, is major rule, minority must respect the decisions of majority. Human right means that minority don’t have to be submissive to majority. They contradict to each other. So for them to coexist, there must be compromises, that is almost impossible unless the people are worry-free and government is rich. If there is no compromise, government will fail to “deliver”. So this paradox explain to phenomena : one, democracy usually carry out much better in developed countries than in developing country; two, democracy (and human right) doesn’t deliver. Therefore ABSOLUTE democracy and ABSOLUTE human right are NOT universal, as they need certain condition to coexist. (2)We, human being are the most intelligent livings on earth, but the understanding of democracy and human right oversimplify human society, it basically describe human society with only 3 variables : people, government and power. That is ridiculous, you cant even clearly describe a society of chimpanzees with only 3 variables. The big problem for this is that it completely dismisses the difference among people : the rich vs the poor, the hard working people vs lazy bones, the good citizens and criminals, etc. With such understanding, “Power to the people” is utterly misleading. If we divide power into 4 categories : Controlling nature resource, controlling capital, controlling information, controlling individuals ; and we divide people into the following categories : government, the rich, the media and journalists, the hard working people, the criminals, the parasites who want to live on others. I don’t think I have to say much, you can see that with the oversimplified understanding, the slogan “Power to the people” is in the vicinity of nonsense. (3)Absolute democracy and absolute human right are against science. In a country with limited resources, scientific management is crucial. But, science is in the hands of very few people, otherwise most people would becomes scientists. So absolute democracy almost surely will prevent government making plan scientifically; even government does make plans scientifically, the principle of human right will prevent the plans carried out as planed. The most significant example is that almost all the democratic countries are in debt, and this is after 2 decades of development. Were the policy-makes in democratic countries more stupid than those in China ? obviously not In India, people complain that government has no long term plans, Are Indian more stupid than Chinese ? I don’t think so. Nearly 10% of NASA engineers are Indians, and their success in US is obvious. But when every “activist” has a say on planning, scientifically planning is impossible. (4) Absolute freedom is against humanity. In a society, usually, the more help a group of people need, the less power they have; the less help a group of people need, the more power they have. Absolute freedom, in real world, means that people can get as much as they want, with their power. The result is terrible, as it means that the more you need help, the later you will get help, and the the people who need help most are the last ones who get help.
 written by Bchung, February 01, 2012
The only word I have for this article is : BIGOTRY.
"It goes without saying that the only Hong Kong people who welcome mainland tourists, immigrants and shoppers are developers and their cronies (real estate agents, contractors etc.), especially those who are large shopping mall landlords. Even for retailers, whether or not they can benefit from the influx depends on whether the products they sell are mainlanders’ favorites. As for the rest of Hong Kongers, all they can feel towards the swamping inflow is resentment. " Really? I am sorry I am an accountant. Most of my clients are Hong Kongers and Forigners, with a little over 10% being Mainlanders. I welcome mainlanders to HK though. Don't worry I am not a property developer or their cronies, as I hold a grudge against them too. But honestly reading the last paragraph I can conclude that this piece is nothing but bigotry. The reason being is simple, the paragraph I quoted is idiotic at best. Lets make it simple, most of my Local clients (not property related) make a living by catering HKers who makes a living by catering mainlanders or have family & friends who is. Get my point? If not try this then. Many of my foreign clients are in HK to expand business attracted to HK because of the rule of law "&" because of the mainland market. Get my point now? As an educated person such as yourself one can hardly believe that it seems you will go so low to only cherry pic "negative" aspects of mainlanders coming to HK. An average Hong Kie who spent most of time in "HK GOLDEN FORUMS" may justify their ignorance, but an intellectual like yourself? It shocks me when I have to read such weak and nonsense arguments of a primary student quality. You point out the like of only property developers and their cronies benefits from the influx of mainlanders, but ignore those who are "indirectly" benefiting from it. Don't those who are directly benefiting from mainland spending not spent when they earn money which in turn benefit the next the next person in line? Then don't that person who earn money from those directly benefit from mainland spending, spend and benefit the one next in line? Yes just because the 3rd or later person who are receiving the benefit does not get it directly from a mainlander does not mean they are not indirectly benefitting from it since those who pay for their products and services got their money from the products and service they provided to those mainlanders. Its actually quite shocking to read such bigotry from a supposedly highly educated individual. If this piece came from places like the HK Golden Forum, then I might have just ignored it. If you want to say its unfair then, I suggest you to read some Karl Marx so you can perhaps master the skills of socialism / communism where everyone is "perfectly equal".
written by Bchung, February 01, 2012
"I only visit once a year. Yet I can feel how dispossessed many Hong Kongers must feel. It’s time to act now to protect that border, before the city becomes a totally alien place."
The most amusing line. Unless your visit is at least 6 months long each time, I find it amusing and ridiculous for someone who just drop by once a year and left HK sometime ago is in a position to tell the "locals" in "protecting that border". Ms. Poon after reading such bigotry I honestly think that we HKers should also protect the other border where the likes of you come for a visit, "if" we are to "protect" the northern border, its only fair we start protecting all borders. Ms. Poon how about I name some positive aspect of the "locusts" bringing to HK? They support tens of thousands of jobs and their dependents, which in turn support another tens of thousand of jobs and their dependents, like all industries. Their kids coming to HK for school is "competing" with locals kids, yet not so long ago HKers were complaining a top of their lungs and telling the government to stop killing schools. If there is more enrollment in the future wouldn't that be exactly what these ailing school needs and prevent it being "killed"? Many mainland students are rich good for nothing brats yet many are at the top of our schools, universities through their own hard work. Their presence is bringing multinationals corporations back to HK so they can use HK as a stepping stone to get in the HK market, and the other way around where Chinese companies go overseas through HK. Many of the ills like high property prices is not just because of Rich Mainlander, its also because of the ultra low interest rates we link ourselves to the USD. Its also because of the HK government tendering system which favors high land prices. Most of all its because of HKers themselves always speculated on properties. Tung Chee Wah who is the only leader in HK that tried to kill our dependence in property was brutally rejected by HKers because of his Anti Land policy. How ironic for HKers to be complaining now when less than a decade ago we were cursing the man who tried to kill huge reliance on our property speculated economy, and so Donald rose up and brought back the good old days of sky high property prices. Yet your bigotry article only seems to suggest Mainlanders are being the only to blame. Mainlanders undeniably played a big part in these sky high prices, but compare to the other reasons listed, its not even close to being the biggest and main culprit. BTW not so long ago HKers were all dreaming that a rich mainlander will come up and give them bags of cash to buy up their property, I suppose thats what we call irony. BTW do enlighten me, I would like to have your opinion where (retarded - IMO) HK Golden Forum kids went to sing their Anti Locust song to a bunch of mainlanders standing in line waiting to go in a Luxury shop, just because they are mainlanders, can I sing a anti black/white/arab/ song in the middle of the street of any Free and Democratic places with strong rule of law? My exp in Canada certainly tells me that there is a line in freedom of speech and discrimination/hate crimes. Please also elaborate that Discriminatory ad in Apple & Shark Daily? I was hoping to know the consequences of me and the newspaper that holds and ANti N*gger ad / G**K ad, Anti Jewish ad in those western democracy. Can I get away with "freedom of speech"? Lastly I will definitely be most interested to know what is your opinion on a chapter on the D&G scandle, where the protesters started to curse any person whom seems like a mainlander & tell them to scram back to HK? Which I find the cursing mindless since the one who offended the locals were most likely Italian and Local management, unless you are telling me a mainlander told D&G to discriminate the locals. So why not burn an italian flag and start cursing who ever looks Italian instead? I know many & seen many mainlanders shitting and peeing everywhere, not something I would like to defend, but I am really interested in knowing a bigot's opinion & justification on vilifying those who don't act uncivilized. Lastly from my experience, Beijingers offer their seats in buses and subways much more frequently than all other places I have visited or lived in (Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, HK, Singapore, Thailand, Toronto & London), HK is somewhere I will placed in last along with shenzhen when it comes to offering seats since they are too busy playing with their gadgets. So I suppose Beijingers are all much more civilized passengers in public transports that HKers will ever be right?
written by Bchung, February 01, 2012
Lastly I will definitely be most interested to know what is your opinion on a chapter on the D&G scandle, where the protesters started to curse any person whom seems like a mainlander & tell them to scram back to "mainland"
written by Bchung, February 01, 2012
Just another point that I would like to add regarding HK Civic Value. If the Civic Value is so high and mighty to HKers eyes, I must be seeing ghost since I was born, since there is no way HKers and Foreigners will cross the street when its a red signal or crossing the streets where you are not suppose to then. I must also be blind to see the people littering (mostly unintentional), smoking in 7-11 and the Jockey Club & eating and drinking in the MTR.
The other in the MTR video was despicable for sure, not doubt about that, but her little child admitted that they were "wrong" in the video (her mum told her to shut up) do enlighten me then, why you still generalize? Literally every point you & those HK Bigots brought up besides from the flooding of the Maternity wards and ER cannot be solely or completely be blamed to Mainlanders. Your arguments and justification is idiotic and moronic at best (BTW its not name calling when its true, your article says much about what kind of person you really are). Just because there is a huge population of bigots in HK who is overwhelm by the changes in China in post 1997 doesn't mean their bigotry is justified, and mainlanders should be solely to be blamed. Lacking the ability of self reflection is one quality HK seems to be increasing lacking of.
 written by YM, February 02, 2012
As a Gweilo living in Hong Kong I can emphasize with many of the grievances that HK people have. Rents, inflation, wealth gap, unresponsive government, or, the sometimes less "civilized" behavior patterns of Mainland tourists and the disappearance of loved spots due to rent hikes.
However, what I do find pretty disturbing are the sweeping generalizations and the almost xenophobic undertone that some commentary from ostensibly liberal (tolerant? rational? balanced?) commentators such as the one above have gotten as of recently.
 written by Emilianna, February 03, 2012
I just explained that people here disagreed with their government, you ignoramus.
written by Emilianna, February 03, 2012
No one said western democracy doesn't have flaws.
I agree there's no such thing as "absolute" anything. Of course everything has flaws. But people need to be able to publicly disagree. Can you really read english? http://entertainment.time.com/2010/05/04/kent-state-40-years-later-top-10-protest-songs/slide/georgia-bush-2006-lil-wayne/#georgia-bush-2006-lil-wayne http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Activists_plan_911_Katrin_0909.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_image_of_George_W._Bush#Response_to_Hurricane_Katrina That's if your employer hasn't firewalled you outside those links. I also suggest you fire your english tutor or get a better one. You may have some valid points but fail to be articulate and not be a douche about it. But I guess you gotta earn $ somehow. I do believe you earned enough money here to buy you breakfast!
 written by Rumination, February 03, 2012
Whatever happened to the infant girl who was bleeding to death on the streets of Guangzhou and passersby kept ignoring her?
written by Wahaha, February 04, 2012
There's a multitude of Chinese run media outlets reporting from the CCP's perspective every single day with a budget of millions.
And you're going to bitch about one person stating their observations? Are you joking or just mentally retarded? ************************************ Emilianna the moron, Above is your comment, obviously you are talking about freedom of speech and democracy. You people euate freedom of speech to bashing government, bunch of idiots.
written by Wahaha, February 04, 2012
I hope you know that free speech allows even you, the right to make ignorant comments on a site because you disagree with someone. THAT is what free speech is. EVERYONE has a RIGHT to vocally disagree with anyone without the threat of being jailed or tortured.
**************************************** Emilianna, Who controls information in your country ? not government, it is the rich-run media and journalist. Therefore, to judge if you have freedom of speech, you have to check if you can hear the voices that media and journalists don't like. Understood, moron? ********************* Say something other than what media has told you. Free speech ? nothing coming out of mouth was through your brain, all of them were fed to ear by your media and then direct to your mouth. THEREFORE YOU ARE "FREE", get it ? You don't have different opinions other than what media and journalists brainwashed you to believe, therefore you are free. What a fool!
written by Wahaha, February 04, 2012
No one said western democracy doesn't have flaws.
I agree there's no such thing as "absolute" anything. Of course everything has flaws. But people need to be able to publicly disagree. Can you really read english? ********************************* OK, enlighten us by blaming something on western democracy. Obviously, your "free" media wouldn't talk about that. BTW, show us the REAL result brought by western democracy. I cant read English, you cant read facts. We OK now?
written by Wahaha, February 04, 2012
That's if your employer hasn't firewalled you outside those links.
****************************** Can you find a link before me who ever listed 4 fundamental flaws of western democracy ? What a bitch!!!
written by Wahaha, February 04, 2012
EVERYONE has a RIGHT to vocally disagree with anyone without the threat of being jailed or tortured.
******************** Jon Huntsman mentioned someone in China who try to "TAKE CHINA DOWN". Who are they ? You mean anyone can poop in front of house because it is public place ? What are you going to do if someone poops in front of you ? Are you gonna say it is his human right because he did it in public place not your bedroom, huh ?
written by Emilianna, February 04, 2012
I don't like your voice. Yet I can still hear it. So obviously you have freedom of speech don't you?
written by Emilianna, February 04, 2012
Poop? Where did poop come from? Do you dream of poop a lot?
"Pooping" is obviously not the same thing as posting something on message forum or communicating an idea. And I don't know where you get your translation or dictionary that says speech = defecation. You need a new dictionary or translator.
written by Emilianna, February 04, 2012
I don't know how you expect to find a girlfriend calling every person a "bitch". Clean up your language eh? You're making other wumao-ers look like foul mouthed name-calling children.
written by Emilianna, February 04, 2012
Why don't you come here and I can show you the protests going on. Go to a Romney or Gingrich rally.
Also there's no such thing as western democracy. We're verging close to a plutocracy, and many people know it. And who's the west? Is India the west? Cuba? Turkey?
written by Emlianna, February 04, 2012
Come here!!! I'm inviting you to come see a protest!! You think Americans like their government? They do not! Come here!! Get on a plane! Come!
written by Wahaha, February 04, 2012
Emilianna,
Who cares about your right of bashing governments ? Western democracy is not designed to protect the government, it is designed to protect the rich and corporations, Exact as I said, the words fed by your "free" media go directly from your ears to your tongue, a brainless moron. So bring up something that your "free" media blame problems on system, otherwise have your mouth zipped about it, because you are clueless. One, US is not democratic. Two, you dont have freedom of speech, know who Anita Dunn is ? know who Brooksley Born is ? How has your "free" media reported OWS ? "you pull a knife, I pulll a gun", so if you try to insult me, dont expect nice comeback. get it? "TAKE CHINA DOWN" is the "poop" i was talking about, get it, moron ? Respect other people's right ? ever heard McCathyism ?
written by Emilianna, February 04, 2012
I NEVER SAID US was completely democratic, stop shoving your words in other people's mouths. But since you're so well-versed in American History I guess you're the expert, even though you never had the chance to study abroad.
Just keep calling me a bitch, like water off my back. Internet readers, look at the way he talks, this is how wumao trolls talk. They call everyone they disagree with clueless, bitch, moron. Yet they just keep repeating themselves never bothering to read different newspapers (which have different opposing points of view FYI). These are the kinds of classy educators they hire on their universities. Their poor language is what makes them look petty and crass. Wahaha keep up the good work. One day you'll be a celebrated history professor. XOXOXO Loves and Kisses!
written by Wahaha, February 04, 2012
Wahaha = overpaid wumao
I NEVER SAID US was completely democratic, stop shoving your words in other people's mouths. But since you're so well-versed in American History I guess you're the expert, even though you never had the chance to study abroad. ***************************** LOL, Just let you know, Wumao is not that a negative word in China NOW, as it is a huge factor that exposed the so-called pro-democratic people and caused millions starting wondering what these people really want. Anyway, the issue is not "complete democratic", it is not even close to democratic. see the 2nd flaws of western democracy. Idiots like you basically equate "take power away from government" to "power to the people", typical craps fed by "free" media. and some idiots think they carry the torch of truth and try to teach others with such used tissue. Have you asked your favorite candidate whose money he is gonna cut so he has money for you ? Well maybe your kid's money, maybe your parent's money, maybe the money that should be used to fixed the road in front your house. get a clue, you fool ?
written by Wahaha, February 04, 2012
Oh, one thing maybe you didnt notice:
Each year, hundreds of thousand of chinese go to US, each year hundreds of thousand of chinese go back to China. Did you ever read any report that some of them tried to sell "democracy" in China ? I guess all of them are wumao, right ? I myself participated two demostrations in 1986 and 1989, the 6.4, you think Chinese were fighting for democracy ? (that is the reason 2008 bashing china backfired, Dont believe, do you hear much about DaLai now?) Frankly speakly, I dont know how you people used the used the tissues again and again.
 written by rina, March 07, 2012
We (PRC) rule Hong Kong. It is just a tiny little place...just like yourmind. Get used to us mainlanders if you a patriotic Chinese. More of us are coming.
 written by David Schneider, March 17, 2012
I have lived in Hong Kong since 2001. I am married to a local and my was born here so he is half Chinese and half American. I am a radiation therapist with over 20 years experience but the Hospital Authority told me 3 years ago they would never interview me again or hire me. I was pretty confused. i decided to leave my wife and son here and move back to New York and got a job as Technical Operations Manager at NYU Langone Medical Centers for Radiation Oncology. It has been difficult for the past 21 months so I quit and moved back.I was told recently that I would never be hire by hospitals here because I am an ex-pat.
I feel for the Mainland Chinese who get treated like lepers by locals. I find my experiences in the Mainland slightly more welcoming. Growing up around Manhattan I was make very ware of antidiscrimination laws and the evils of racism. I think Asia in general has a long way to go to understand the lack of understanding of the human condition and what racism and protectionism create in the modern day world. The U.S. certainly has its share of racism but they have very strong laws to protect people and give them a voice.Hong Kong and the region have interesting perspectives about what they are and the views of each other. When i was managing the department I just left I had people from many areas of the world: Haiti, Greece, Philippines, Hong Kong, South America, Europe. I never once heard a racist comment passed in the department or any issue about someones background. If I had they would have been brought up on charges and dismissed.
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Mockingindian
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You are grossly generalizing when you quoted the political attitudes of Hong Kongers vis a vis Mainlanders. The whole issue of shop rents and housing is a result of globalization. The issue has nothing to do with mainlanders, especially when it comes to maternity wards. This is more of an issue with the government. Why don't the government close the loophole of automatic residency for babies born in Hong Kong? Hong Kong mothers in the past have had their babies born in Canada and USA for the same reasons, exploiting similar loopholes, it's human nature. These traits are shared by all people. I have also lived in several cities in China. To generalize that all of them are crude is plain ignorance, as I found many of them can be quite sophisticated, not the bumpkins that you imagine.
Perhaps if you love Hong Kong so much, why don't you stick it out here like many of us Hong Kongers? Scapegoating mainlanders is illogical, since whether you like it or not, they do contribute to Hong Kong's prosperity. What D & G did was wrong, and despicable. But is is even more wrong to see this as a Hong Konger versus Mainlander issue. Remember, when the mainland first opened up, Hong Kongers had privileges over Mainlanders. I remembered the time when manilanders were barred from entering hotels or nightclubs in Shanghai and Guangzhou, and yet mainlanders took it in stride. It's OK to vent your anger at D & G, but completely wrong to encourage discrimination against mainlanders.