| Who lost Vietnam? |
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| Written by John Berthelsen | |
| Tuesday, 30 January 2007 | |
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And who’s going to lose Iraq?
More important, they say, it is negative press and the hangover from Vietnam that is tying America’s busy policy hands itching to attack Syria and Iran today. Now, as things get worse, there is a rising tide of criticism of the press, much of it emanating from the pages of the Neocon journal, The Weekly Standard. But there is more. Here is the prominent conservative ideologue James Q. Wilson writing on the opinion page of the Wall Street Journal: “The mainstream media's adversarial stance, both here and abroad, means that whenever a foreign enemy challenges us, he will know that his objective will be to win the battle not on some faraway bit of land but among the people who determine what we read and watch. We won the Second World War in Europe and Japan, but we lost in Vietnam and are in danger of losing in Iraq and Lebanon in the newspapers, magazines and television programs we enjoy.” In Wilson’s view, echoed by many others grasping for a reason to explain why America’s misadventure has gone so badly wrong in Iraq, the problem is not sectarian civil war, bad US planning nor the fact of an ill-conceived invasion of a sovereign country in the first place. Traitors in the media are to blame for public anger over a war gone wrong. “People who oppose the entire war on terror run much of the national press, and they go to great lengths to make waging it difficult,” he writes. They did it in Vietnam and they are doing it again in Iraq, Wilson believes. But apparently if the press hadn't reported it, the story would never have leaked out that 58,226 American soldiers died from combat and non-combat injuries in Vietnam, with another 153,300 wounded over 13 years of combat of varying intensity. America’s client military, the Army of the Republic of Vietnam, lost another 230,000 dead plus 300,000 wounded. On the other side, an estimated 1 million North Vietnamese and Viet Cong combatants died – nearly four times as many as allied casualties, with an estimated 45,000 North Vietnamese dying in the terrible weeks alone of the Tet offensive of 1968 against more than 1,500 American dead and nearly 800 wounded. While the Tet offensive exacted an enormous toll on the North Vietnamese military -- presumably a disastrous tactical error by the military architect Gen.Vo Nguyen Giap -- the fact that Tet occurred was devastating on the US. Scenes of vicious fighting were beamed into American living rooms in the world’s first television war, with tanks and armored personnel carriers coming out of the old imperial capital of Hue piled high with the bodies of dead Marines. The body count of American servicemen would ultimately reach 216 dead in a battle that raged for three weeks. The battle for Saigon itself, in which Viet Cong got all the way onto the grounds of the US Embassy itself, appeared to be a dramatic acknowledgement of the US's inability to prevail – especially since the commander in Vietnam, Gen. William Westmoreland, just a few weeks before had told Congress the war was basically won. Westmoreland himself would later write that "The war still could have been brought to a favorable end following the defeat of the enemy's Tet Offensive. But this was not to be. Press and television had created an aura, not of victory, but defeat." In particular Peter Braestrup, a former Marine and reporter for the Washington Post, in a book called The Big Story published in 1977, would later argue that press coverage of the Tet Offensive was badly wrong. Denis Warner, in Certain Victory: How Hanoi Won the War, went further, writing that "This is the only war lost in the columns of The New York Times. They created an image of South Vietnam that was as distant from the truth as not even to be a good caricature. There were those who invented, distorted, and lied." James Q Wilson agrees. He argues that liberal reporters and editors have wrested control of the media away from tycoons like William Randolph Hearst, whose “yellow press” beat the drums savagely —this was a good thing, Wilson believes — during the Spanish American War and the invasion of the Philippines. The fact is that for years, through the bloodiest fighting, the American people had listened to the Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara tell them that “there’s light at the end of the tunnel” only to have the body count continue to climb. And, despite the common wisdom that the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese had been finished as an effective fighting force in February of 1968, 21,202 of the 58,000 dead American soldiers were killed after 1969, according to the US Department of Defense. Ignoring the lessons of history is dangerous. Vietnam won the Vietnam War. The press didn’t lose it. They won it because they were willing to take terrible casualties and continue fighting. Despite the tactical debacle at Tet, which some historians say delayed the North Vietnamese Army’s return to the field of battle for three or four years, they regrouped and returned. And had they suffered another massive defeat, they probably would have returned again. The Vietnamese were willing to continue to fight for their country as they had been doing since World War II when Japan drove the French out. The revisionists also seem to believe that had it been allowed to survive, South Vietnam’s government would have somehow been transformed as those in Korea, Taiwan and Thailand have been in the post-World War II period. But Vietnam’s leadership was enormously corrupt and addicted to internecine feuding while the country was coming apart as a succession of weak governments came and went, with each successive change of government reported to an increasingly frustrated American public. It included a military that was selling artillery shells to its enemy and generals who set up entire ghost battalions so they could collect the pay of soldiers who didn’t exist. The US Army itself had begun to disintegrate in a seemingly unending war. According to US Department of Defense figures, in 1969, 87 officers and noncommissioned officers were “fragged” killed or injured by their own soldiers, usually for being too enthusiastic about going out into harm’s way. In 1970, that rose to more than 450 before falling to around 350 in 1971, then falling again to about 50 in 1972. In the United States, Walter Cronkite, then the dean of American broadcasters, may have been telling viewers from Hue that the war was a disaster, an event looked upon by the revisionists as the single most disastrous act of press betrayal. But those same viewers were seeing first-hand the coffins coming home at a rate as high as 200 or 300 a week. At the same time, their decaying cities were on fire behind them as rioting African-Americans demanded to be let into the American dream from which they had been excluded for 200 years. S Rajaratnam, the combative onetime foreign minister of Singapore who died last year, used to charge repeatedly that the US "cut and ran" in Vietnam. That is nonsense, especially coming from a country that never lifted a finger to help protect itself from what was perceived to be a Communist threat. The United States lost in Vietnam. It didn’t cut and run. Its resolve lasted for a decade — at that point the longest war in the country’s history — and it finally withdrew not because it was betrayed by its press but because the price had become too high for a democracy to pay for a dubious cause, far from its shores. It would be a wise lesson to remember for the neoconservatives who charge the press with treachery.
John Berthelsen, Asia Sentinel editor, was a correspondent for Newsweek Magazine in Vietnam in the 1960s. Comments
(18)
Iraq
written by Johny , May 12, 2008
USA already suffer the consequences of their miserable failure
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Typical one-sided nonsense
written by Ajarn , August 30, 2007
Yet another typical one sided anti-US/Anti-Bush/Anti-Nixon nonsensical rant. In retrospect, America might have “lost” the military battle in Vietnam but it “won” the cold war and economic freedom (capitalism) won out over the terribly flawed system of economic dictatorship (Communism). American may “lose” the military and politic battle in Iraq, but in the long run the American system will survive and Islamic extremism, despite the support of the left, will fall by the wayside just like all other systems of dictatorship and oppression have in the last 100 years.
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It is amazing how hatred is the driving force of modern “Liberals.” This hatred seems to make them incapable of any kind of rational analysis of any situation that involves the USA. God, when will the anti-everything crowd stop playing the same broken record. report abuse
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Just One Quote
written by Arthur Borges , July 12, 2007
Asked why the RVN and US had lost that war, one niece of Col. Ngo Cao Ky said in 1985 or so "They didn't take enough account of the Buddhists." The Catholics have a mentality that is too narrow to rule an Asian society, even if they are third- and fourth-generation local converts.
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American in Asia
written by D Ross , June 20, 2007
Many out here in the real world ask the question; how could the US “lose” what was never theirs? Vietnam belongs to the Vietnamese – not to a foreign nation. This “losing” bull is just some more of that anti-commie trash and debris from the fifties. Like the silly question posed then,”who lost China?”
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You cannot lose what was never yours! Additionally: Imagine yourself as a Vietnamese veteran of the NVA, indoctrinated with the hope of independence and anti-imperialism. You lost your leg in the war, but your side won. But now, in 2006, you look around, and you see Coca-Cola signs, Ford Motor Dealerships, Bank of America, and American Express all over your country. You watch as a US warship makes a courtesy visit in Saigon. You might be forgiven if you think to yourself, I lost my leg and my family for all of this, and yet they cut a deal anyway. What the **** was that all about? Now let's imagine our veteran has changed nationalities and is now a US veteran, one of ours. Our American Vet, in 2006, looks down to where his leg once was, he looks up to his TV showing him the smiling faces of American businessmen in Vietnam, and the courtesy visit of the U.S. Navy to what was perhaps his old base at Cam Rahn Bay. Our vet is thinking, I lost my **** leg, and they cut a deal anyway. Can we blame either man for wondering, what the **** was that all about? Start the grading The Mall my friends for another “Wailling Wall” because we have another one on the way. Hey, maybe we Americans need to admit the truth; we do business or we do war. “next country in line please.” DR bkk report abuse
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written by Andrew Milner , May 14, 2007
Have you viewed, "The Fog of War" on DVD? Robert McNamara's take on his time in office under JFK and LBJ. Especially the part where he claims (based on conversations with his North Vietnamese opposite number in 1995/7) that the entire Viet Nam War (American War) was unnecessary and the result of compound misunderstanding by both sides. Namely, North Viet Nam believed that the US wanted to take up where the French left off. Not true, as the US would have agreed to reunification and independence from Day 1. The US believed that a Communist Viet Nam would allow the Chinese in. Part of the so-called Domino Theory. No way, Viet Nam had been fighting China for 1,000 years. Both sides believed they were fighting for "freedom". So there you go, expensive case of cross-cultural miscommunication. Some 5.5 million deaths for the region as a whole. And now it's Iraq and even Iran; there are two ways to learn, there's the easy way and then there's the hard way. The easy way is really easy, but the hard way is bloody hard. Pick your wars carefully.
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legal advisor Iraqi gov\'t
written by william j glueck , May 10, 2007
pokfa
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Mr Berthelsen, you need to read what the North Viets say as to why they won. I attach quotes from Col Bui Tin, the NVA officer who lead the tanks into Saigon: "If Johnson had granted Westmoreland's requests to enter Laos and block the Ho Chi Minh trail, Hanoi could not have won the war. It was the only way we could bring sufficient military power to bear on the fighting in the South." : "Support for the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9AM to follow the growth of the antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and would struggle along with us ... those people represented the conscience of America ....part of it's war-making capability, and we were turning that power in our favor." Truth is that we defeated the insurgency by 1971,72. Our allies lost because Democrat Congress cut military aid by 90%. It's a lie that the South Viets wouldn't fight. I know, as I was an advisor to 3d ARVN Infantry. In 1972 1st ARVN and Marine Divisions stopped the NVA conventional invasion cold at My Chanh and then reclaimed the lost territory. Problem was the reporters blindly adopted the 1962 template of David Halberstam, who was under the influence of a VietCong agent Pham An Xhan--the war lasted 13 more years and changed dramatically overtime, going from a guerilla war to conventional invasions. As Mark Twain said "History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes"---I'm hearing the same tune for reporters today that I heard 35 years ago. But ultimately, you are correct, reporters didn't lose the war--McNamara and Johnson did. Rumsfeld has alot to answer for here in Iraq. We need to get the SecDef out of operational matters( but not strategy or force management)--the military war fighters should report directly to the President. If Colin Powell were SecDef instead of Rumfeld, things would be much different here in Iraq now. report abuse
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Vietnam \"won\" the war?
written by lirelou , May 03, 2007
The First Indochina War was, after 1948, not about "colonial reconquest". It was about who would govern Vietnam; i.e., a single Marxist party state, or a state formed about a coalition of parties which included both former colonial supporters and genuine anti-communist and anti-French nationalists. The Second Indochina War was not between the United States and Vietnam. It was between two legally recognized (and flawed) Vietnamese states, both of whom viewed the other's existence as illegitimate, and both of whom had willing allies for reasons having nothing to do with Vietnam per se. The northern state, with its marxist structure, enjoyed unity of effort. The southern state, suffering the very fractures of its origens, never attained unity. The end result of this intra-Vietnamese conflict was that Vietnam was both the winner and loser. Several million fled, and the economy of what had been France's richest colony plummeted to among the lowest standard of living levels in the world, while the U.S. limped away. There were myriad factors that contributed to the failure of U.S. policies in Vietnam, and press coverage was among them. To ignore equally important policy, intelligence, and military failures which likewise added to the "loss" of Vietnam is to simply rehash pre-1975 arguments. Freedom and democracy cannot be imposed from outside, they must arise from within. We were in Vietnam for our own reasons (principally to oppose monolithic communism, some years after it had crashed, but not yet burned), whatever our rhetoric. Our mistake was to take what could have been an military advisory effort totally within the constitutional powers of the president, and turn it into an undeclared American war in which draftees whose congressman had never voted on the war were being sent to suffer and die in it. Vietnam was not an American disaster. It was painful for those of us who fought it. It was a disaster for the Vietnamese, both losers and victors.
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written by JOE OLIVA , April 25, 2007
The Government of South Viet Nam could have sustained itself if we had continued military aid. In that same vein, the government of Iraq will prevail if we continue to grant it the support it needs to achieve critical mass.
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The definition of victory in both cases has always been a government able to rule itself and repel outside intervention. The lie you promote is that America is on site because we want to achieve some conquest of other people. The truth is we are there inorder to give others the same opportunity for freedom that we enjoy. It took America 12 long years to establish a stable, unified country, and we operated under much more favorable conditions than either of these two nations. Despite your blame America attitude, we have always fought for freedom, for ourselves and others. Those of us who give a damn about such things will stand with others around the world willing to also risk all they have for freedom. JFK "We will bear any burden, pay any price..." you should know the rest of this and you should care, but self-righteous fools like you will never get it. report abuse
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written by Chris Pappas , March 27, 2007
It is interesting that the neocons blame the press for losing the war. This is the same press that was drooling over itself for the war to begin. The same press that ignored the obvious lies from the Administration. The same press that refused to even acknoledge people like Scott Ritter (the US weapons inspector to Iraq who repeatedly said there were no large stockpiles of weapons or production capabilites). Unfortunately, the lines between journalism and entertainment hardly exist.
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Who won vietnam and Iraq
written by rockyh77 , March 20, 2007
The money makers that’s who. The so called public servants that have become an aristocracy of social parasites. Taking tax money and hoarding it while in a controlled press they say a committee should be made to find where all that money went. Or also “we” must follow the Queens rules of combat, how dare “our” military kill innocent terrorist without a trial and an appeal, how will our families of attorneys make a living? The US was a REPUBLIC, by the way, there are no true democracies. The mistake our government makes is it refuses to recognize states rights at home (republic) but and to form strong central governments (oligarchy) around the world but call them “democracies”. We should have formed strong states in Iraq and turned a loose central government over to the Kurds. They are the only non-secular, non-Arab group in the region with a strong military. Hey they even keep strong boarders, what a novel idea.
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WE NEED OUT OF IRAQ NOW. report abuse
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written by Donald Johnson , March 19, 2007
There is a common misperception among Americans that the Vietnam war was "winnable." It never was winnable, not in 1954, not in 1965, not in 1975. And it never should have been winnable, because it was a war against national independence by a hegemonic foreign power. All discussions about who "lost" Vietnam are off base because they assume from the start that there was some legitimate rationale for American involvement. Blaming the media is no different than blaming the messenger for bad news. It distracts from the real message of Vietnam: which is that American military force, however powerful, cannot and should not prevail in an unjust cause against a determined foe.
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Iraq was never winnable either, and it never should have been, because it has always been a war for the domination of Iraqi oil fields by the proxies of American oil companies. The mainstream American media was, and still by-and-large remains, shamelessly lockstep behind the Iraq invasion and occupation. I know this to be true because I had several call-ins to radio talk shows cut off, several articles and letters to the editor submitted to newspapers never published, and several anti-war demonstrations that I participated in never reported about. I attended the NYC antiwar demonstration in mid-February 2003, and I would judge by the size of the crowd that more than 500,000 participated in that march. You never would have known that by the news reports in the media. Time and again protests leading up to the war, particularly those around the November 2002 elections, were completely ignored by the media. Now the neo-cons have the timidity to complain about media coverage? After the third time I was assaulted at a peace vigil (and the last time did get covered by a short note in the local newspaper saying that the peace protestors provoked the attack), I left the USA in disgust in 2003. America is no longer the country I grew up in. Actually, if I had to compare it to any country, with the Patriot Act raiding our libraries, and the suspension of habeas corpus for citizens and non-citizens alike, since Sept. 2001 it has felt more like Nazi Germany must have been like in the 1930s. report abuse
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written by mainediver218 , March 18, 2007
Failure of Democracy
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Who won or lost in Vietnam and who wins or loses in Iraq is not the seminal question in my mind. The bigger question is the effectiveness of the US version of democracy. The people ultimately control the government and control the press. If the people are not active, every day, in determining their own fate through participation in the democratic process then it is the press, and emotion, that rules the day. A country governed by sound bites, unfortunately, as great a nation as the US could be, the people are too deeply absorbed with their accumulation of "stuff" and personal comfort to take part in crafting their own future and providing leadership in the world. report abuse
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The one who lost..........
written by abubakar , March 17, 2007
The people lost. People in whom a shred of decency pervail. Not the Americans. They are not one people. They are a domocracy, therefore do not belong to a particular group of nation.The Americans are nations united in an ideology of freedom. Yet they do not tolerate the same in others. It's a lost cause from the beginning. People never like wars. Decent people that is.
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FOOLS ALONE FAIL TO LEARN FROM THE PAST
written by krishna Murthy , March 09, 2007
Iraq war - it is another case of misplaced confidence and over riding intelligence feedbacks. planning wars inside the safe shelter of petagon is one thing and fighting in the actual battle field is another. Americans have always a fancy to flex their muscles where they are least invited. You cannot win a war with the local population hating you all the time. A bunch of oppurtunist you set up as representatives of the whole population can only feed you what you order them to feed. it is high time America stops dreaming and awaken to the reality of the world order.
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Blame The U.S. Again
written by Daniel Wizinski , March 05, 2007
It's not the "neocons" that you should be worried about. Opinion polls show a wide dissatisfaction from all sides with the media's negative bias and what seems to me (a progressive) a clear desire to hurt America and to be loosers in this fight. Rip
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written by CJ , March 02, 2007
Vietnam war was truly an American disaster. Its difficult for them to acknowledge it but the press poured it out. The same fate may await them if they want a war with Iran. Lessons have to be leart from past experiences. American dont seem to learn even the hard way that they cannot control the whole world around them.
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Berthelsen in Vietnam?
written by randyj76 , February 21, 2007
Freedom and Democracy a dubious cause? All of your fatuous arguments are like listening to a bad Hollywood-leftist (and cynical) rendition of the Vietnam War. You and Bert belong in the same Saigon bar, proud to be in the "loser" club.
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| From vultures in Delhi, to coups in Pakistan, a journalist's un-edited take on current events |
Read this:
“Our army that now remains in Vietnam is in a state approaching collapse, with individual units avoiding or having refused combat, murdering their officers and noncommissioned officers, drug-ridden, and dispirited where not near-mutinous Conditions exist among American forces in Vietnam that have only been exceeded in this century by...the collapse of the Tsarist armies in 1916 and 1917.”
Armed Forces Journal, June 1971