| Reason Lost in Angry Voices on Tibet |
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| Written by Dinah Gardner | |
| Tuesday, 15 April 2008 | |
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In
the squabble between Chinese and western media, truth, as usual, is
the first casualty
Where are the voices of reason? Those first demonstrators who took to the streets in Lhasa in early March were simply asking for the release of a group of monks who were jailed last year for setting off fireworks to celebrate the Dalai Lama getting a US Congressional Gold Medal. The reasons behind that protest and subsequent demonstrations run much deeper of course – they span economic, religious and cultural grievances as well as being a cry for the right to assert Tibetan identity. “The Tibetan problem is about religion,” a Chinese academic who has been researching the country’s minorities for decades told Asia Sentinel. “It’s not a question of independence. It’s about the condition of Tibetan’s lives.” But few journalists have spent serious time looking into the reality of what it means to be a Tibetan in the People’s Republic. For the Chinese side, Xinhua stubbornly maintains that it’s a minority of “terrorists” and trouble-makers, orchestrated from outside China by the so-called “Dalai Lama clique,” that are responsible for the Olympic torch disruptions and the “beating, smashing, looting and arson” in Tibetan regions of China. Beijing, if anything has been generous to a fault in improving Tibetans’ lives and the majority of Tibetans are content with their lot and grateful with it too, the state news agency trumpets. Meanwhile, the western press, albeit usually a little more balanced and less “hysterical” than mainland rants, report allegations and claims from Tibetan exile groups without question and frequently without sourcing. Of course, with China denying foreigners access to Tibetan areas, overseas journalists say there is not much else they can do. But out of this angry media mess, even within the mainland, there are a few voices of reason. In early April, Southern Weekend (Nanfang Zhoumo), a weekly magazine published by the Southern Media Group, well known for its controversial investigative journalism, ran an editorial by Cao Xin. In this 1,200-character essay entitled “A Different Kind of Thinking on Tibet”, Cao made the most reasonable arguments yet about the Tibetan question to appear in the mainland press. He suggested that the protests in Tibet demonstrated that many Tibetans still revere the Dalai Lama and that the government should distinguish between those Tibetans who advocate violence and independence and those who do not. For the good of the nation and to support the Olympics, Beijing should seek a dialogue with the latter group. More controversially, Cao suggested that Tibet is a special case and that policies adopted in other autonomous regions are perhaps not appropriate and that “genuine regional autonomy” is the answer. Human rights activist Xiao Qiang, a professor at the University of California at Berkeley and director of the China Internet Project, sees Cao’s editorial as evidence that there is a diversity of opinion on Tibet within China. “The Tibet issue is not allowed to be publicly discussed in Chinese media, unless it is the Xinhua line,” he told Asia Sentinel. “So the fact that Southern Weekend had an article with a different perspective is something. It is a strong indication that not just ultra-nationalism and the government’s official position are the only Chinese voices.” At the same time Cao’s editorial was published, Chang Ping, an editor with sister publication Southern Metropolis Weekly, posted an essay on his blog criticizing the lack of free speech within China over the Tibetan question. His post, according to blogger Shen Yuzhe and, separately, media blog Danwei.org, has sparked online fury. Chinese patriots are branding Chang a “Chinese traitor” and – comically – a “running dog” and the Southern Metropolis Daily, “China’s CNN”. The level of venom unleashed against Chang is a measure of just how deep emotions run over the status of Tibet and how nationalism has swamped logic. While Chinese are well aware that their media is controlled and censored, in the case of Tibet they either believe Xinhua is telling the truth or they think that it’s in the best interests of the nation not to question state media in this situation. Xinhua has employed a variety of methods to hammer home the official line – including the use of cultural revolution speak and repetition of basic facts. The guilt of the “Dalai clique” is always asserted as fact with no proof; the sometimes farcical quoting of foreigners is used to admonish Tibetan protesters; and there is complete denial that Tibetans have any real grievances. A source at a Chinese anthropology magazine said that they were not allowed to publish articles on research their journalists had undertaken recently in Qinghai province on Tibetans because “it was too sensitive.” Many of the netizens who rant against western media and Chang are very aware of government censorship – after all they are well versed in the use of proxies to see banned news sites from overseas. The older generation, who remember the Cultural Revolution and the Tiananmen protests of 1989, are also well aware of the press’s distortion of the truth, and perhaps may be reminded of those times by the language and media tools employed in the Tibetan coverage. According to a translator from Guangdong province, the Chinese public is either indifferent or in denial. Tibet is a remote area that has little to do with their lives, so perhaps it’s not important to them whether the media is telling the truth or not, he said. Besides, he says, at the end of the day, stability is more important than the truth. “I think communist propaganda is very successful in indoctrinating the average Chinese citizen of the myth that stability is the priority for China, a country where there are 56 officially recognized ethic groups and clashing economic interests between different social strata. “If the average Chinese is apathetic about politics, I consider it a reaction to the bloody lessons they or their parents or grandparents learned from 1989, the Cultural Revolution and other campaigns.” Indisputably the mistakes of western media – the mislabeling of photos showing Nepalese police beating protesting monks as Chinese security forces, for example – and its focus on alleged Chinese brutality against Tibetans – have hardened locals’ attitudes and reinforced their patriotic support of state media. “I think Chinese media is reporting what happened in Tibet in a more truthful way than western media. It is also much less biased and fairer than western media,” said a 30-something marketing executive in Beijing. “I read both Chinese and English news so I know.”
She
also explained why she is angry at Tibetans. “Personally speaking, Tibetan people are rather violent and rude. Some of them… refuse to speak Chinese… and some [Tibetan] vendors… spit on you and curse you for no reason. I have been to Tibet so I know,” she said. “I really believe this protest and the violence were organized from outside China.” Never mind the Tibetans. It’s the media that gets the final say.
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(108)
French media
written by Hannü , October 11, 2008
Apart from staying in touch with my Tibetan friends scattered around Tibet, I followed the riots on a couple of French media sites and must say they outperformed all English language media in terms of both speed and depth.
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Reincarnation of the Dalai Lama
written by texiaonan , June 01, 2008
The reincarnation system of the Living Buddhas including the Dalai and Panchan Lama may continue "as is" which is in accordance with the conventions established by Emperor Qianlong; such being a "religious" matter not to be interfered with.
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It may be worthwhile to point out that the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama was first initiated by the 5th Dalai Lama circa 17th Century for purpose of succession. It was the 5th Dalai Lama that first incorporated Buddhocracy of "god-king" integrating religion with politics. Buddhocracy was and is being objected to by other Tibetan Buddhists including the followers of Dorji Shugden within Dalai Lama's own Gelugpa Sect as Buddhocracy is deemed as an aberration that contradicts the fundamental principle of Tantra Buddhism of "selflessness". The internal conflict continues to date witnesseth the protests by NKT followers against the Dalai Lama for alleged religious persecution of the Shugden followers. The Tibet Issue, with other considerations aside, is all about politics. If it is going to be resolved, it will only be with a political solution - that of a separation of religion and the state. This is the dilemma of the Dalai Lama. report abuse
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written by SiMa Qi , May 31, 2008
To Liang1a
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It’s nice to read comments from someone who takes time to try to understand the issues. I wish to point out a basic fallacy of your argument (very nicely researched) regarding the selection of the Dalai Lama by the Chinese government. The choice is essentially religious, not political. The Chinese government may have legal precedent for selecting a Dalai Lama dating from the Qing Dynasty, but that doesn’t mean it ever had the moral or spiritual right to do so. In other words, if it was wrong then, it doesn’t make it right now just because they did it before. It’s not a legal issue. It’s a question about whether he is actually the incarnation of the previous Dalai Lama. How can a self-professed atheist regime presume to know anything about that? I’m an agnostic myself, so the question of his veracity is beyond me, as it should be beyond them, and you,(unless you are a Buddhist, which seems unlikely). Obviously, their motivations are political rather than spiritual. report abuse
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Blueprint of Settlement of the Tibet Question
written by yexiaonan , May 30, 2008
1. Tibet as it is geographically defined today shall retain its current status of "Tibet Autonomous Region" ("TAR")within the sovereignty and the constitutioanl framework of China.
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2. The 14th Dalai Lama shall be free to return to TAR in his role as a private citizen and a religious leader, and abstaining from his role as the absolute monarch; thus a separation of religion and the state. 3. TAR shall be governed by persons elected in accordance to a new TAR constition as mutually agreed with no exclusion of any ethnic groups. 4. Religious freedom shall be guaranteed within the framework of the new consitution. 5. All exiled Tibetans shall be free to return to TAR as law-abiding citizens with their freedom guaranteed. 6. TAR government shall establish procedure and criteria for immigration including Han Chinese who wish to settle in TAR. Q.E.D. report abuse
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Chinese brothers and sisters
written by Aka , May 27, 2008
Past is past, Leave History to the Historians to decide.,
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Future remains and we must work together (chinese and tibetans), by peaceful means,instead of blaming each other for a solution to this problem. report abuse
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to my chinese bros and sis
written by tenpa gurmey , May 09, 2008
tashi delek to every one,
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i read some of comments and it really hurt me when i learned that most of the people giving comments still don't know whats really happening in Tibet and what had happened in there. the subjects that you are talking about especially MR/Mrs Ngai, i am one of them. My grandfather was a farmer and as in your sense a slave and for him A man from the golden era, because even though we were not economically doing very good, we had enough to fill our stomach and enough to feed our pets. we had every thing that were imaginable at that time, most importantly we were happy, we had peace in our mind because we had freedom. After that came Chinese occupation over Tibet(illegal) which followed killing of thousands of Tibetans and destruction of thousands of monasteries. which followed Chinese policy of equal wealth distribution , which followed mass starvation(First time in Tibetan history.) The most important thing is that we were deprived from basic human rights. Chinese government are saying that they have helped us do good economically,they have developed Tibet. i say prove it. we would have done much better than this even without them, the whole world were developing at that point of time, may be quite late but we would have done better. with Chinese invasion came mass movement of han Chinese and they were the one who were always benefited. Even if it was the only case, I would not have mind but the thing is that,in my own country I have to learn Chinese language to get a job. When I do a business i have to know how to speak Chinese. now its been some 10 years since we have came to exiled, Before i didn't even know how to write in Tibetan, now i can write and read three different languages and speak five, now thats development. My dad owns a factory and he pays for my bikes fuel, now thats development.We have freedom here buts but not country. But what we have is a truth and if i am not wrong the history says it all, the truth has always won. If Chinese government thinks that they are true and western media is not then i think its really simple, prove it, lets open Tibet to world, independent investigator, UNO. Tenpa Gurmey report abuse
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Prof & Ph.D
written by et.zhouyl , May 08, 2008
In fact, western media neglected the Chinese peoples' feelings. No one can desert his homeland and support his enemy! Western media is now producing itself enemy in China.
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Foolish Western media
written by Ngai , May 06, 2008
The medias in the West today have very low quality journalists who are only interested in attracting eyeballs, Murcoch-style. Sensations, untruth, scandals, political bashings are all they care.
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Tibet issue is very complicated. Not many in the West have thorough and clear understanding of the sitution, yet they blindly believe or imagine whatever they are led to believe in simplistic ways. They like to attack China for any and whatever reasons at all times. Right or wrong, they just could not care less. The exiled Tibetan community are mostly former rulers of Tibet, noblemen, senior clerty/government officials and landlords. They of course wish to return to their old glory in Tibet to lord over other Tibetans as slaves as before 1950. Since they are mostly educated in the West, they know how to use English to get support from numerous West groups, NGOs, foundations and of course the likes of CIA etc. Dalai Lama does not have total and absolute control of all the exiled Tibetans which are very divided by many slpinter groups, some radical, militant and some more pragmatic. The recent riot was organized by one of the most radical ones which got ample funding from the West to stir up trouble before the August Olympics in Beijing to get world attention. They paid thugs to burn, rob, loot and kill. in Lhasa and some West media called this righteous "uprising". In any other country, this would be described as terrorist riots. The more the West tries to twist truth and bash China for anything, the more they encourage unhealthy nationalistic emotions in China, especially amongst the educated young who are sick and tired of all the idiotic anti-China bigotry in the West. The West media, in this Tibet situation, shamelessly proved to them that the West has not respect for China and totally ignore all truths to blame China for anything which does not meet the "approval" of the West. They think China can manage their own affairs without the West to lecture them from high horses. The West media need to be alerted that they are fanning some dangerous fires here. Just for attracting some stupid eyeballs, they might just find themselves becoming the cause of another big fire. Probably they should stop taking cocaine when they are reporting untruth. The world would be better off without them. report abuse
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written by eastman , May 04, 2008
West's logic is fatally wrong that a government which cracked down the protest once must crack down forever.
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CCP can tell lies all the time, but it told the truth on the Tibet rioting this time; West media can tell truth forever, but it lied this time. West media is just a tool in the anti-China geopolitical agenda, nothing else. Almost all patriotic Chinese youth have finally realized it, though they used to be so much pro-west before. West is successful for one thing: To unite Chinese as one as never before, behind the CCP which represents the Chinese national interest, though, you failed to know, Tibet doenst belong to CCP, but to China. report abuse
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Pointless to meet Dalai clique
written by Bushwhacker , May 04, 2008
I really don't understand why China has to give in to Western demands to meet Dalai clique. In the 50 years, China has developed the region and still allows all the major monastries to function. However recent riots in Lhasa and China proper indicate that some monk elements are still loyal to Dalai clique. The correct solution is to reduce the monk population from current 450,000. Which part of the world has 1 in 4 people ratio enrolled as monks? Not even theocratic Iran has such a ratio.
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The Tibet Question - Real Politics
written by ye xiaonan , April 28, 2008
The Olympics Torch Relay Campaign and the "3.14" Incident in Lahsa was well planned,organized and funded.
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The 5th "International Tibet Support Group Conference" held at Brussels , May 11-14, 2007 and funded by the Friedrich Naumann Foundation, an affilate of the Free Democratic Party (FDP) attended Dalai Lama and by some 300 participants representing 36 Tibet associations and hundred some Tibet support groups drew up the "Action Plan" of the "Roadmap or the Tibet Movement for the Coming Years" which included the 2008 Olympics as an :excellent opportunity" for the advancement of the Tibet Movement. The conference was attended by Paula Dobrainsky, Undersecretary of State for Democracy and Global Affairs, herself on the board of the "Project for New American Century", a super-think tank whose professed objective included foreign intervention for advancement of American capitalism and upholding of democracy whose board consists of Chenney, Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush etc. The conferenec was followed by Dalai Lama meeting with Chancellor Merkel of Germany and later he was presented with the Congressional Medal of Honor by GWB in late September 2007; thus kicking off the "Olympics Torch Relay Campaign". See www.german-foreign-policy.com. For an understanding of the real politics behind the Tibet Movement, see Louise MacBain's "Heads of State Ought to Know othe Facts of Tibet and China" which outlined the "Middle Way" approach of a political solution of Tibet as demanded by Dalai Lama and his TGIE. It should also be noted that the "17 Point Agreement for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet" signed in May,1951 included provisions that the Central Authorities (China) will not alter the existing political system of Tibet and the authorities of Dalai Lama (#4), the local government to carry out reforms of its own accord without compulsion from the Central Authorities, and when the people raised demands of local reform,they must be settled through consultation with the leading persnnel of Tibet (#11), and local personnel taking part in the military and administrative committees shall include patriotic elements from the Local Government of Tibet in consultation and with approval from the Central Authorities. Both Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama enthusiastically supported the 17-Point Agreement which were doomed in the beginning due to internal conflicts amongst the nobility and land-owners on one hand and the peasant serfs on the other leading to Dalai Lama's claim that Beijing had reneged on the Agreement - and his self-imposed exile in 1959 followed mainly by his followers, the nobility and the land-owners. The real politics of the Tibet Question is most complex which is further complicated further by involvement of international support group in the pretext of human rights, cultural and religious preservation etc. This is not to say that China/Beijing was faultless as China herself had gone through years of internal turnmoil. The economic inequity of the indigenous Tibetans as a result of the recent economic development and the influx of Han Chinese is an area that needs to be addressed or redressed by Beijing. The recent or current international uproar may be a blessing in disguise, forcing both sides to deal with the Tibet Question hopefully in a more realistic and pregmatic way if a solution is to be found. report abuse
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Time to abolish Tibetan Monarchy
written by Bushwhacker , April 27, 2008
The Maoist is about to abolish the Nepal Monarchy and the King is a reincarnation of God Vishnu. Similarly China rulers created the Dalai Lama and make him a God King. It is time to abolish the Tibetan Monarchy because China is a People's republic.
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written by Save Tibet , April 26, 2008
China government department to meet Dalai representative.
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Does Dalai Lama know who he is?
written by shen , April 26, 2008
Without CIA back up, Dalai Lama is a dead dog, he is not deserved to talk to Chinese government first he used to be a slaver owner in the past, second he is a kind of terrorist sponsor now. Chinese government agrees to talk with his envoy, that is appeasement to the west, that's enough, stop asking for more. People don’t ask the USD to talk with original Indians to give back their land, some people in the west are biased beyond description.
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written by shen , April 26, 2008
Without CIA back up, Dalai Lama is a dead dog, he is not deserved to talk to Chinese government first he used to be a slaver owner in the past, second he is a kind of terrorist sponsor now. Chinese government agrees to talk with his envoy, that is appeasement to the west, that's enough, stop asking for more. People don’t ask the US to talk with original Indians to give back their land, some people in the west are biased beyond description.
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Star Trek quote
written by Borg Collective , April 26, 2008
"Resistance Is futile. You will be Assimilated!"
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Ignorance & Racism
written by OT , April 25, 2008
Too often in recent Western media reporting and from speaking to overseas Tibetans involve in the independence movement, I notice an undercurrent of racist sentiment. Many in the media and the Tibetan independence movement asserted that Tibet was not a part of China during the Yuan and Qing dynasties because these two dynasties were not “Chinese” but Mongolian and Manchurian since their founders were not of the “Han race”.
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However, many Tibetans and Westerners seem to forget that “China” did not exist back then. China as a political entity in the Western political sense came into existence at the founding of the modern day Republic. Previously, the political entities that have succeeded each other in occupying that landmass have always marked its successive political governments by individual dynastic names. This is equivalent to European monarchies marking time by the name of kings and the birth of Jesus or the French numerically designating its successive republics since the French Revolution; i.e. the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Republic. Han as a racial designation is also a conceptual fallacy for it was originally used simply to denote a person of the political Han dynastic empire. As a “tribal” designation, Han only gain wider usage during the Yuan and Qing dynasties in reaction to the two nomadic tribes. Even then people would just as often referred to themselves as a person of the Yuan or Qing dynasty as Han, Mongolian or Manchurian, while ironically the first wave emigrants to SE Asia and the Americas more often than not referred to themselves as the Tang people rather than “Chinese”. Consequently, because of its history and geopolitical location, today’s China and its predecessors have always by necessity been multi-cultural and multi-ethnic in every modern sense, such that during the Han and Tang dynasties it included peoples that we today know them as Mongolians, Koreans as well as Tibetans etc. Dynastic names were therefore used as both historical and political reference points as well on traditional calendars. They were never ever used as a racial designation. The Mandarin words for the English word race is “Jong Ju” which seperately means kind/origin and tribe. It has no biological connotation. Frankly, racial designation is an unhealthy perversion/obsession that grew out of the Western scientific tradition of categorisation and were taken to extreme in the political eugenics of Western and Japanese imperialism and colonialism. It is a legacy that seems to have survived to this day and have unfortunately also “infected” the psyche of many young overseas Tibetans who grew up in the West, their Western sympathisers and the Tibetan cause. report abuse
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BIAS OR NOT:Come to see the evidence
written by vivien , April 25, 2008
www.anti-cnn.com offers lots of pictures and video as evisence to prove the WEST MEDIA lied to the western world.
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It is bilingual-Chinese &English.You'll find a truth quite different from the west mesia's reports. report abuse
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Dance of Death
written by Arthur Borges , April 25, 2008
Ken, do check out http://www.henryckliu.com for a detailed layman's guide to the interlocking relationship governing the Chinese and U.S. economies: yes, China was self-sufficient but for way more than 20 years.
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Otherwise, the West wouldn't have needed to force the country to legalize a narcotics market in the 19th century that neatly offset the West's trade deficit (yup!) and bankrupted the country (aka "Open Door Policy" and "Gunboat Diplomacy"). Today is a different ballpark, yet China is being paid for its exports of REAL wealth (e.g. PCs, shoes, cargo ships and passenger liners) in a devaluating fiat currency called the US dollar, which China is having a harder time than ever spending in the USA. As Henry CK Liu notes, China's mistake was to finance its stunning economic growth with foreign, not Chinese, capital. report abuse
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written by Mao , April 23, 2008
The Tibet riots arised from the 49th anniversary of Tibetan National Uprising. Next year, the soldiers will be out in full force, since it will be the big 50.
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written by Aroha Bahuguna , April 23, 2008
As an Indian, who was actually present in Lhasa at the time of the riots, I've had an opportunity to look at the situation very closely. While I do agree that Tibetans have been forced to live like second class citizens in their own land,fault does not lie only with the Chinese side. Like I said, I was present during the time of ritoing and unfortunately stuck in the mess. I was with a friend who is an Indian but has very typical Chinese features, which meant that we weren't safe. We were in a Tibetan neighbourhood and most people weren't willing to give us shelter. It was only when we showed them our Indian passports that we got refuge! Also, I agree with the Chinese when they say that some of the Tibetans are downright rude even when they're in India.
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China is World No. 1 producer of prositutes
written by The Pariah China , April 23, 2008
China is the world number 1 producer and exporter of prositutes.
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What can you expect from such country, truth?? even in your dream also you cannot find. report abuse
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Dr. Mahatir\'s Speech
written by Arthur Borges , April 23, 2008
More excerpts from Dr. Mahathir's speech:
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QUOTE 15. S.E.A. is the home of the Spice Islands. For almost a millennium S.E.A. states traded with the Asian countries like China, India, and Arabia. Despite the fact that we South East Asians used to levy taxes on trading ships passing through our waters something which the Europeans describe as piracy, the home countries of these Asian traders, powerful though they were, never sent their military forces to punish us, even when some of their people were killed. 16. But when the Europeans finally reached us in their armed merchantmen, they demanded trade monopoly and the right to build fortified trading stations on our land. After that they came with their armed force to conquer and colonise us. The Portuguese occupation of Malacca is a good example. They came for the first time in 1509 and two years later an armada under Alfonso de Albuquerque conquered Malacca. We can say the Europeans brought a security problem with them. 17. China was a huge country with millions of people and located only 2000 kilometres from Malacca, but they never threatened our security and certainly they never conquered us. 18. Portugal was 12,000 miles from Malacca (via Cape of Good Hope) but they actually attacked the tiny state and made a colony of it. UNQUOTE I recommend a meditated reading of the entire speech to one and all. report abuse
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Beware of Belligerent West
written by bushwhacker , April 23, 2008
PETALING JAYA: The world need not feel insecure about Asia because the region's members prefer security that is guaranteed by economic development, said Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad.
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It was not Asian countries that made the West feel insecure, but the West, he said in his address titled Security problems in Asia and their possible impact on world stability at the First International Conference by the Centre for Defence Information Studies in Havana, Cuba, on Monday. Asians believed that promoting a prosper-thy-neighbour policy would help to reduce problems from coming into their own countries, he said, adding that Asian powers had not indulged in military adventures for a long time. However, the United States has been telling Asian countries that they have a serious security problem, he added. Dr Mahathir said the United States had convinced Japan and Korea that China was a threat to their security. “But is China a threat to the security of its neighbours and to the rest of the world?” he asked. “So who is causing Asian countries to feel insecure? It’s certainly not the Asians, but the United States, the most belligerent country in the history of mankind.” Dr Mahathir said the real threat to everyone’s security was caused by people who continually produced new, and more efficient, weapons. They promoted the sale of their wares and thus caused an arms race. “The people who sell arms are in fact the people who create insecurity,” he said, noting there were countries outside Asia, which didn’t want to see a stable or prosperous Asia. report abuse
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written by OT , April 22, 2008
Show me a government, a society or an individual that has not f**ked up before in the past and I'll show you the men in whites who will take you to the La La Lands. It does not matter that China has made mistakes in the past, what matter is that it is changing for the better NOW and in the future. It is up to all Chinese, whether Tibetan or Han, whether for or against the government, to make sure that China becomes what they want it to become in their own eyes and according to their own conscience. China has never been changed from the outside. She has always only change when she wants to change and the world can either make room for China or China will make room for herself.
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written by Ich bin ein Tibetan , April 22, 2008
Tibetans must come to a consensus.
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Independence is almost out of the question. It is like asking China to cut off an arm. Autonomy to a certain degree is still negotiable. report abuse
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Get the facts right.
written by Ken , April 22, 2008
1. Tibet, as old as history records has been part of china.
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2. Is never an independent country as old as history has recorded. 3. Chinese does not depend on the west. It has closed doors for more than 20 years and is self sufficient. 4. Tibetian has participated in the drafting of the constitution of PRC, just like all other province representatives. 5. Before the reunion of the whole of china, tibet was ruled by class system which includes selling of humans and salves, which dalai lama is part of it. It may not be the best picture today in terms of human rights but it definitely a world better than Dalai Lama time. So, even if communist is bad, they are better. Therefore all those "independent tibet", "free tibet" are basically the group of human sellers and class sytems people. 6. One thing is for sure, frome the videos, they are not protesting or demonstrating. They are rioters, killers, "mafia" and very violent people intentionally damaging, burning and killing. These are the facts and they are the truth. report abuse
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Tibetan protest is against REGIME
written by wangdi , April 22, 2008
I guess its time the world realises that China needs rest of world more.. these protests which obviously is being orchestrated by the regime can easily boomerang if Chnese buisnesses are bycotted and some shipments are sent back. These are desperate attempts of a clueless gell haired morons who only know to clap on clue and have no idea of clapping when happy or in appreciation or crying in pain or sorrow or laughing when you feel like. Its high time that they are given a message in their own language, they could do it with Japan now they think they could do it to France or rest of world. They havent forgiven Japan for its wartime atrocities and Nanjing and expect world to forget ot ignore what they do in Tibet!! Its time that the Chinese students are also told that world shared their anguish and pain when Tianenmen happened is Tibetan blood lesser than a Chinese. Even a small start at boycotting Chinese buisnesses will surely send the message loud and clear to Beijing coz it would hurt them, its their money listed on bourses in Shanghai and elsewhere.
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All those patriotic Chinese boiling their blood over Tibetan protest and Dalai Lama should know that Tibetans too deserve to live with dignity and not subservient to those coming from Beijing or elsewhere in Mainland. Why is Xinhua not writing anything about the Tibetan girl who too was kiled with Chinese girls in Lhasa supermarket. Remember my dear friends the regime you are so passionately efending wil not blimk an eye before doing Tianenmen again and thousands of Chinese are languishing fordemanding just fair price for their land or their labour in mines and factories or just better treatment for HIV-AIDS. Tibetan struggle will go on regardless of what you feel and to the last Tibetan standing (even Hitler couldnt wipe out Jews)they will keep rasing their voice against repression and subjucation and for their rights. report abuse
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Dalai Lama invites US interference
written by bushwhacker , April 22, 2008
In his talk with the Undersecretary of State Paula Dobriansky in the UMichigan, the Dalai requested urgent helps from the US
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It\'s about time...
written by nanheyangrouchuan , April 22, 2008
China is a dirty, rotten country that needs to be broken up and buried.
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written by OT , April 22, 2008
Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions....
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written by smoked lizard , April 22, 2008
Yup, should have guessed. Mainland Chinese would'nt be writing all these mumbo jumbo.
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written by OT , April 22, 2008
smoked lizard said
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What do we have here? Chinese Malaysians rooting for China, and bashing their own country. Well why not, especially if the government is racist, incompetent and blatantly corrupt. It is a fact of life that we all have multiple identities within us. For example if you smoked lizard are a Malaysian Muslim male, then you are both Malaysian, a Muslim AND a male. At the same time you may also be a father, grandfather, husband, brother and also be identifiable by your employment or vocation. So just because you are one thing dosen't necessarily exclude you from being something else all together, such that a Muslim can also be gay or even a hemephrodite. Smoked Lizard, you really should wake up, smell the roses and break the bonds of socio-political conditioning. Expand your horizons, you too can be whatever you want to be. Dosen't this give a whole new meaning to the term, "For we are Legion"? Think on it. report abuse
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Alarm, Irony and Liang 1a
written by Arthur Borges , April 21, 2008
What a saddening discussion.
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Liang, I have to agree with your positions but heck, you do come on a bit strong sometimes. Yes, ironically, a Qing army installed the 3rd Dalai in 1721 and there would be none today without that event. There's also a regent (who enthroned the last Karmapa in Lhasa in late August 1992) and is widely known in the USA as "Situ Rinpoche" but "Tai Situ Rimpoché" (sic) in France: the "Tai" part is an honorific title bestowed by a Chinese emperor. Liang, the only piece of information that alarmed me was your claim that China has "hundreds...thousands of ICBMs": available estimates from the Federation of American Scientists says the ICBM force is 20 to 25 liquid fueled ICBMs a little ways down the Yellow River from where I teach here in Zhengzhou, with three or four on hard alert. The newer DF-31 is probably being deployed now while the DF-41 is somewhere in the development chain. The FAS estimates the total number of warheads at about 250, including tacticals and spares -- compared to the size of the Russian and US arsenals, this adds another zest of iron in that China seems to trust the Americans and Russians more than they trust each other. report abuse
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written by Andreas Pratseyo , April 20, 2008
The greatest mistake by Mao is not to force assimilate the Tibetans into greater China. Too much respect for the Dalai and Pachen lama, I believe. Now the boils seem to cause some mosquito pain but far from danger. The current government care too much about western human rights
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Just pls go back to wacking bushes
written by Sosang , April 19, 2008
Yo, Bushwhacker, you're pathetic, man. You keep on posting the same inane rants about "western imperialists," "the dalai clique," blah blah blah blah blah blah. Your spiteful, ignorant diatribes may come off well in the state-controlled Chinese media by way of "commentary," but your staggering ignorance and raging chauvinism get tiresome after one silly post after another. If you have nothing else to contribute to the discussion, just calm down, boy, take a deep breath, and get a hold of yourself. It'd be great, too, if, for a change, you read up on your history, so next time you can't fight the urge to give us some more drivel, you'll have at least a passing familiarity with the actual facts, not just endlessly regurgitated propaganda. Cheers, buddy.
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59 Years Too Late
written by Mao Tse Dung , April 19, 2008
It is far too slow and too late for reason.
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IT IS NOW TIME FOR ACTION! Completely close the borders and have a 100% Olympics competed between 100% Team China with only the IOC forced to attend and sit in the stands waving Chinese NAZI flags. EVERYONE - sing the Communist International!!! report abuse
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Prescription for Communist Chinese >
written by LIAGRA , April 19, 2008
Beijing mobilizes cyber-comrades against Western press coverage of Tibet crackdown
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"Beijing has initiated a Chinese-style jihad against the Western media and, by extension, “anti-Chinese forces” in the West for alleged distortion of the Chinese Communist Party’s repressive Tibet policy. In a throwback to the Cultural Revolution, state media are spearheading a mass crusade. Given that China’s netizens exceed 200 million, it is not surprising that the nationalistic jihad has manifested itself most prominently on the Internet." Sounds so familiar... report abuse
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Freud, Fromm, Love and China/Tibet
written by Rudolph W. Ebner , April 19, 2008
It is wise to pause and consider human psychology as we all try to come to understand this issue and how we feel and think about it. We all have emotional needs to see the world in certain ways based on our nature and our life experiences. This can interfere with reason. We see this when people talk AT each other instead of WITH each other. Listening to each other and thinking also takes energy...and we can all be lazy especially when ideas threaten our world view.
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We human beings have a strong need to identify ourselves with SOMETHING that transcends us. That can be family, tribe, religion, country, fate, political party, sports team and even love of humanity. We mortals are different from animals because we have this need. It is based on awareness of our mortality and our ultimate aloneness as individuals. We have a need to seek meaning that no other animal has. From this comes all of human history. A true faith in one's power to think welcomes questioning. It is not afraid of being persuaded otherwise. A strong desire to identify one's personality to a belief can produce a strong reaction - even violence because it is perceived by the personality as a threat. You see this when you try to discuss the Middle East with many Jews and Muslims. Look at how Jimmy Carter is vilified for his book-Peace Not Apartheid. You can honostly disagree with Jimmy Carter - but he is making an attempt at reason. You see this in the way that young freshman at Duke university, Ms. Wang, a Chinese was treated when she tried to set up dialogue between "Pro-China" and "pro-Tibet" demonstrators the other day. (See New York times, Chinese Student Is Caught in Confrontation, April 17, reported by Shaila Dewan.) Even her family is threatened in faraway Qingdao! And do not think that you do not find the same phenomenon on the "pro-Tibet" side. there was real violence against Han Chinese in Tibet. And there are individuals on that side who actually disdain the Dalai Lama himself and hate what he teaches but use his name to cause hatred of China. The Dalai Lama, whatever you may think of him - is NOT a hater of China. How can we begin to solve this and other problems? We can attempt to identify ourselves with all man and womenkind. That is how we can transcend ourselves and find meaning - Love of Mankind. To truly love something you must truly know it and understand it. When you know something or someone you know both the good and the bad of it. It is not love unless you then take an active interest and responsibility for it. (But you must also respect it - or responsibility degrades into domination!) Think of a parent, as an illustration of the principle, who does not like his child because the child is obnoxious or destructive - but the parent still loves the child and works for his/her well-being and happiness. So too, with love of country. So too with mankind. So too, where we must start - ourselves. Freud's great contribution to human understanding was not really about our sexuality but how unconscious forces motivate us. We often do not reason or act for the reasons we think we do. But old Sigmund also believed in the ultimate power of reason to overcome what is destructive in us to ourselves and to others. Eric Fromm (1900-1980)wrote in his book, The Art of Loving, "Beyond the element of Giving, the active character of love becomes evident in the fact that it always implies certain basic elements, common to all forms of love. These are care, responsibility, respect and knowledge." (1956) All of this, true love, knowledge and understanding is a lot of work. The hard work begins with knowing and understanding ourselves...and always cherishing some skepticism of even our most cherished beliefs. It helps to keep a sense of humor in this. Anyway, with respect and affection to all of you from a very imperfect and lazy lover, Rudy report abuse
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written by smoked lizard , April 19, 2008
What do we have here?
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Chinese Malaysians rooting for China, and bashing their own country. report abuse
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Deceit,Hypocrisy,Jealousy.
written by smoking dragon , April 19, 2008
Deceit, hypocrisy, jealousy and predatory, that is what you get from the West nowadays. Asians are not perfect, but they are not predatory. They mind their own business generally and let others develop the way they want. BUT not the West. They are used to being colonial powers. Now in their waning years, they are trying to get a last shot at their favourite target, China. The excesses of the WEst need not be aired here. It is so glaringly clear that they are out to embarass the China Olympic games. They have forgotten that the London Games is in 4 years time. The enemies of the West are many. Perhaps it is time for the Americans and Europeans to hold their horses and reflect on the consequences of their action. I agree with Liang 1A, that the editor of Asia Sentinel is in error. UMNO is Malaysia has always threatened the Chinese with another May 13. Complaining about it is NOT advocating violence. Asking the Chinese to defend themselves is NOT advocating violence. It is asking the Chinese to be prepared for any eventuallity. There is an impending conference involving PKR,UMNO and PAS to discuss the future of the Malays. Why is this conference being called? What is the agenda? Is it to discuss what action to take against the non-Malays? Is the presence of the FM Rais Yatim in Singapore an attempt to assess Singapore's reaction to UMNO's attempt to seize power? The issue of Pedra Bangkra is just a smoke screen. They have agreed on that long ago. What Malaysia is asking Singapore to do is to stay out of any violent attempt to seize power(and putting the non Malays under ISA). But LKY long ago has said that he cannot stop any "volunteers" from crossing back to Malaysia because many Chinese in Singapore have relatives in Malaysia. The Chinese will not tolerate any attempt, violent or otherwise, to put them down. UMNO is in a quandry. The NEP is a failure. The psyche of the Malays is weak. The pirate culture of the Malays is rising to the fore. Now they feel that the only way to success is to do what their forefather pirates have done; seize what they want from whom they like. They must realise that the only way to success is to work hard. Readers must realise one thing. The Malays are NOT poor. They have money in their pockets. The problem is the money comes easy, from the government in one way or other. The source/resources are drying up. You cannot keep giving away free and easy WEALTH without asking where all this wealth is coming from. The next step of the NEP(National Economic Piracy)is to forcibly take from the Chinese. How doesn't matter. It is when it is going to happen. This is what the Chinese have to be prepared for. Mr Berthelsen, what do you think YOU would do when faced with this situation.
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Foreign Puppeteers behind Olympic Protests
written by bushwhacker , April 18, 2008
A report in Xinhua revealed the puppeteer behind the Tibetan Olympic protest
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Quote The report on the www.german-foreign-policy.com website said the Friedrich Naumann Foundation (FNSt), largely state-financed German foreign policy front organization, was behind an "action plan" to spur anti-China protests over Tibet before and during the2008 Beijing Olympics. At the fifth "International Tibet Support Groups Conference" organized by the FNSt in Brussels on May 11-14, 2007, a "plan of action" was made after several days of consultations to make the Olympics the focus of attack for the next 15 months, the report said. It said Paula Dobriansky, the Undersecretary of State in the U.S. State Department and special coordinator for Tibet questions, attended the conference. "They hired a full-time organizer for their campaign, who has since been directing the worldwide Tibet actions from their Washington headquarters," the report said. Unquote The Dalai Lama is a worse traitor than Pu Yi because Pu Yi was treated shabbily by the Yuan Shi Kai's Warlord clique. However Mao Tse Tung and CCP treated DL with respect and decorum. Yet DL is a willing colloborator to bring disgrace to China Tibet by taking money from CIA and Western governments. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 18, 2008
I've been getting threatening e-mail from Berthelsen, the editor of Asia Sentinel, threatening to ban me from Asia Sentinel. He had accused me of posting advocacy for "murder and insurrection", his reason being that I advocated the Chinese in Malaysia to organize themselves into neighborhood guard organizations and arm themselves to protect themselves from Malay thugs the UMNO leaders have threatened to unleash onto the unarmed Chinese to murder them. The accusation that I advocated "murder and insurrection" is therefore obviously a trumped up charge. Protecting oneself is not murdering others.
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Of course Asia Sentinel can ban anybody it chooses. There is no law that require they allow anybody to post. But if Asia Sentinel claimed that it wanted to encourage expression of "strong opinions", presumably for the freedom of expression, then it is dishonest to turn around and ban those who disagree with them. In its own introduction of themselves, Asia Sentinel gave the following quote: "The editors will impose no writing formulas but will edit solely for clarity, brevity and accuracy." This is obviously a lie. In his e-mail to me Berthelson wrote: "you can follow our guidelines for civilised discourse or you can take your posts elsewhere." He still pretend thats it is my fault for being "uncivilized". Obviously anybody who disagreed with the bias of Asia Sentinel is not civilized. Lastly, most of the Western posters are advocating independence for Tibet. Tibet is an internationally recognized sovereign part of China. Advocating independence for Tibet is obviously advocating insurrection. And supporting the recent "protest" that killed 18 and injured hundreds is obviously advocating "murder" against the Chinese people. But Berthelsen obviously find this is not advocating "murder and insurrection." Apparently, killing Chinese is not murder but merely "protest" and overthrowing Chinese government from Tibet is not insurrection but something harmless and desireable, though I've no idea what that is. This will obviously be my last post. I just want to remind Chinese patriotic forumites about the hypocrisy of the Westerners. Asia Sentinel is obviusly anti-Chinese propaganda machine. Be self-reliant and independent. That is the only way to be strong and safe and ultimately to be prosperous. Goodbye. report abuse
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written by Rob , April 18, 2008
Why should China talk to the Dalai Lama? Is he a religious leader or a political leader? He shouldn't be both, nobody wants to mix religion and politics. The more the west interfere, the less likely China will ever talk to the DL. Until Tibet is free of meddling from the west, the DL won't likely get an audience with the Chinese government.
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Distorted Western News
written by Bushwhacker , April 18, 2008
Chinese public are now angry about the distorted News about China in the West. I am really disappointed about the Chinese journalists and the Media. There are so much s**ts to write about the West and yet hardly any appeared other than a passing comment e.g.
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a) Problems and death in Iraq b) Prisoner rendering c) Sex and Church abuses d) Simmering discontent, Poverty and riots in Paris e) Prositution and human traffiking of woman f) Black squalor and despairs g) Wallstreet greeds and bankrupcy h) Homeless people and human misery Gay, child abuse, Crime, Polygamy, Gun shooting, Racial hatred and bigotry, and list of western s**ts is endless. If the Chinese press do not uncover these type of negative stories for public consumption, it will make the Western leaders look morally superior and make our Chinese leaders bad by comparisons. report abuse
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written by OT , April 18, 2008
DuDu
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Relax, take a deeeeep breath and exhale. Everybody has their own opinion and not everybody is abolute right all the time (except for the Chinese and the Germans and the French and the Americans and the Japanese, oh and the Tibetans of course etc. etc.). Thats why we are here, its a hi! getting to know you better area and so tell us your side of the story kind of thing. OT Liberated Homeless World Citizen and proud of it (Wow, who says Asians are inscrutable and have no passion) report abuse
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written by OT , April 18, 2008
To Her Mao
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Its Ja (not Ya) and its Heil (not Hiel) otherwise it sounds like, "Ya Heel Hitler" rather than "Ya Hi Hitler" which is the correct pronounciation. And, "Jawohl! Heil Hitler!" to you too "Mein A*****och!"  Overall a B- for effort (I am being generous) because sarcastic ironies looses its effect if you don't get it right. And appologies to any Jewish people reading these intended Monty Pythonesque heel clickings. report abuse
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written by DuDu , April 18, 2008
"So any foreigner who is ignorant of Chinese history should stay out of internal Chinese affairs"
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No one knows Chinese history better than the foreigner! Only todays foreigners will write an accurate history and account of China's murderous regime. Today only the foregner has the complete record and account of the June 4th Tiananmen Square massacre. That date does not exist in Communist Chinese history. Your Dear Leader, Mao Tse Dung, made sure that your history is destroyed and re-written according to Marxist script. The only history that all Communist Chinese knows is Chinese Communist Party history. In China their is no other history except CCP. It is the Western libraries that contain the most accurate factual history of the World including Chinese. It is the CCP's wet dream to destroy the libraries of the west. But in so doing she will destroy herself. It should come as no surprise that their are no "Public" libraries in China. Only naive Chinese useful idiots enrolled in Communist indoctrination University are allowed access to the Beijing Cult Bibles. Just reading this forum stands as testament to that fact. The ordinary Chinese worker doesn't know what is a library. In this sense the worker is as free as one can be in the Communist Chinese dictatorship. It is only the Chinese Communist Party that keeps the Chinese people stupid and ignorant. It will be the Chinese working people who will slit the throat and behead the CCP evil cult. Everyday time passes faster. Every day that passes is one day closer to its final death - Beijing will soon burn. report abuse
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written by Her Mao , April 18, 2008
To Liang1a,
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Ya, Hiel Hitler! report abuse
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Clash of Civilisations
written by Bushwhacker , April 18, 2008
Today the Free Tibet struggle is globalised and it is no longer about the Dalai Lama, Tibet and democracy anymore.
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My thesis is that in fact it is the first stage of a gigantic Clash of Civilisations between the West and Confucian East to prevent a Rising China from playing a leading role in world politics & economics. Today the West is emtangled in another life and death struggle with the Islamic world, hence it is necessary to keep the Tibetan issue warm on the back-burner as a low intensity conflict. The frontal assualt on Rising or Superpower China can only be carried out after the flames of Iraq, Iran, Afganistan and Middle East has been extinguished. report abuse
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written by OT , April 17, 2008
Dear Kauffner,
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I don’t understand what point you are trying make about the 17-ponit Agreement. The DL renounced the agreement after he arrived in India, yes…. and? What’s your point? Can you be more coherent? As with any multiparty agreement, it needs to be implemented and from what I have read is that PCART was a working committee established with the intention of integrating Tibet as an autonomous region of China, to enact land and social reforms and that it was chaired by the current DL and included both Tibetan and Communist officials. Could the reforms have been better managed? I am damn sure it could have been, but that’s what you get when you have communist zealots with the “best intentions” against entrenched feudal interests and the whole issue clouded by religion. I don’t know your source on PCART and what you have read about it, but you appear to equate PCART’s establishment with China’s withdrawal from the Agreement. Maybe that’s the Free Tibet campaign’s contemporary interpretation of the purpose of PCART’s establishment, but I think you need to look at both sides’ interpretation. As to the numbers killed during the uprising, again I don’t know what your sources are? You said 87,000, Western sources at the time said it was around 20,000, but I think you need to consider sources other than simply Wikipedia or the Free Tibet campaign and then add your own minor adjustment. At the risk of sounding callous or insensitive, if a large number of people were killed during the uprising, then that was the number killed. It was a conflict and people die. If it was a large number, then that’s what happens, especially when you have a medieval army against an experienced modern army. You appear to have certain idealised romantic notions about pre-communist Tibet, that it had no army and no soldiers. How did you think the Tibetan peasantry and the Tibetan caste system of slaves and serfs were maintained? Like any feudal theocracy, including that of the Roman Catholic Church during the European Middle Ages, I can tell you that it was not by gentle Buddhist persuasion alone. The aristocracy and the monks themselves have their own soldiers, followers and retainers, who during the times of the 13th DL fought against the soldiers of the reformers in a civil conflict. And at a pinch, peasants too can be press-ganged into the army. Did any other civilians die? I am sure many too were killed in the crossfire, but that is the nature of any conflict, even today’s, except that modern media and technology sanitised it for us and I hope you never have to see the real thing like I have. report abuse
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written by mscitusm , April 17, 2008
The Dalai Lama can best be compared with Pu Yi, the deposed Manchu emperor who collaborated with the Japanese to invade Manchuria. And like Pu Yi, Dalai will be defeated and go down in history as a traitor to his country.
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Let\'s get reasonable!
written by Justin , April 17, 2008
Just imagine that I was the much condemned, human-right-violating, and Tibet-suppressing Chinese Government. OK?
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Would I like to instigate the violence right now before the Olympics that has been so carefully prepared for 10 years? NO. Who would be the happiest to see violence before the Olympics then? Very probably, the Tibetan independence pursers. Who are these Tibetan independence pursers? They appear so justified, so righteous, and so angry before the poor-portrayed Chinese government. However, the westerners seem to neglect a critical point: today’s Kind and Peaceful Dalai Lama was the Biggest Slave Owner about 50 years ago! Moreover, the common westerners know little about the terrible things, like human skin peeling and skeleton kettle making, ordered by this very Kind and Peaceful Dalai Lama before China’s “invasion” into Tibet about 50 years ago.” Did China invade Tibet? Yes. But it happened nearly ONE HUNDRED AND FIVE HUNDRED years ago instead of the western-believed 50 years ago! Furthermore, by constant cultural exchanges and economic communication, Han and Tibetans are both infused into the 56-ethnicity CHINA. It is also WRONG to consider China invading Tibet because you cannot invade yourself, like France invading Corsica, Britain invading Northern Ireland, or USA invading North America. Ok! A summary now: it is the peaceful Dalai Lama who provokes the violence; what he really seeks is not independence but a lost power; and the last but not least, China cannot invade herself! report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 17, 2008
For those who know nothing about the nature of Dalai Lama, here is a short explanation of what the Dalai Lama is. The term lama is similar to teacher or guru. Dalai Lama is a title first conferred on a Tibetan by a Mongol Khan in 1598 and sanctified with the right of reincarnation.
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There were many disputes of who had the right to succeed to be the next Dalai Lama. For example, the 6th Dalai Lama was probably murdered. Following his death there were two Dalai Lamas contending to be the 7th Dalai Lama. Finally, a third Dalai Lama was installed by the Qing emperor in 1721. This is historical precedence that the central Chinese authority has the prerogative of declaring a Dalai Lama to be false and replacing him with a new and true Dalai Lama. Furthermore, the Qing emperor decreed that the selection of the new Dalai Lama is to be under the supervision of the high commissioner of the Qing government. This sets up the rule that the central government of China has the right to supervise the selection of the new Dalai Lama. Therefore, from the above there are ample historical precedence to show that the central government of China has the prerogative to supervise and sanction the selection of the new Dalai Lama. Furthermore, the government of China has the prerogative to declare any Dalai Lama false and replace him with a new Dalai Lama. Given the above prerogative of the Chinese central government over the selection, sanctioning, removal, and replacement of the Dalai Lama, it is the prerogative of the Chinese government now to declare the current Dalai Lama to be false and criminal. Then the Chinese government can either declare the position of Dalai Lama terminated, or it can replace him with a new Dalai Lama to be chosen under the supervision of the central government. Or the Chinese government has the right to create a new position with a new reincarnated lama to replace the terminated Dalai Lama. This is the de jure foundation for the removal of a false and traitorous Dalai Lama. Once the false Dalai Lama is removed and replaced, he would no longer be recognized as the true Dalai Lama and the West would be confounded. And with the allegiance of the Tibetans turned to the new Dalai Lama, the West would quickly lose interest in the old Dalai Lama. And he would be in the same position as the old Russian princes. Probably worse, because the Russian princes at least could keep their titles. After his title is removed, the old Dalai Lama would be just an ordinary man. And then Tibetans can set their minds to improving their lifes by getting a good education and working hard to increase their productivity and earn higher incomes. report abuse
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Chinese Sovereignty
written by Bushwhacker , April 17, 2008
All governments recognise Tibet as part of China and none has recognised Tibetan independence. Some s**t-throwers in the West clamouring for Tibetan independent in the pretext of promoting Democracy and ultimately aim to weakening China.
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Even the current Dalai Lama rejects Tibetan independence. The DL is afterall a Local government Title bestowed at the pleasure of the Chinese court starting from the Yuan Dynasty. There is even a strict code of identifying DL reincarnation established by the Lama clergy and sanctioned by Emperor Qian Loong to prevent multiple claimants to the Dalai and Panchen Lama throne. All DLs including the present DL must be and has been sanctioned by the Chinese court. So any foreigner who is ignorant of Chinese history should stay out of internal Chinese affairs. Thrre is no hope that the Chinese will relent on the sovereignty issue. If India wants to give up sovereignty of Dharmasala to the exiled Tibet government, they can. report abuse
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written by Peter Kauffner , April 17, 2008
OT: The Dalai Lama issued a proclamation withdrawing from 17-point agreement soon after he arrived in India, so that would be after the bombardment. The rebellion against Chinese rule started among the tribal people in Kham (western Sichuan). Aristocrats were the people with most to lose. The PLA secretly estimated that 87,000 were killed in 1959 Uprising, a lot more than aristocrats were involved.
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In 1956, China set up a group called the Preparatory Committee for the Autonomous Region of Tibet (PCART) as kind of parallel government alongside the traditional administration. So Beijing openly proclaimed it's intention to junk the 17-point agreement long before the Dalai Lama fled to India. My grandparents are from Germany, but I don't have much connection to the country myself. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 17, 2008
bushwhacker wrote:
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Rather than waiting for the next Dalai to be reincarnate, China should negotiate with the current 14th Dalai. Despite his credential as his holiness, this Dalai is just as worldly as his equivalence in Rome. ------------------------------ Dalai Lama was sanctioned by the Chinese government before he became the Dalai Lama. The Chinese government can withdraw its sanction and declare him to be a false Lama. And that is the end of the story of him. Or the Chinese government can simply ban Bhuddism in Tibet. That will obviously raise a lot of noises in the West. But who cares? Can any Westerners do anything? Obviously not. If they don't want to participate in the Olympics, then fine. There are not enough tickets and hotel rooms anyway for all the Chinese who want to see the games. Who needs the foreigners? Times like this, I really miss Mao. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 17, 2008
Chen wrote:
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CCP MURDERED One million Tibetans! Survival or Death of the Tibetan Race After the CCP takeover, it almost destroyed Tibetan culture, their system of combining politics and religion, and Tibet's plantation economy in the name of socialist transformation. --------------------- This is really getting tiresome. At least be creative if you want to demonize China. Who but the stupidest bigots will believe the absurd charge that China killed 1 million Tibetans. According to one source, the Tibetan population was 2.8 million in 1953 and 2.5 million in 1964. The decrease is only 300,000 and could easily be explained by any number of reasons. Many Tibetans could easily had left Tibet for other parts of China and out of China. Many had gone to India and other neighboring countries and other farther countries such as the US, UK, etc. Also the definition of Tibet could have changed as what the Tibetan called Kham the Chinese called Qinghai. So there are many Tibetans in Qinghai who are not counted as being in Tibet. (The Tibetans in Qinghai could have been counted as being in Tibet in 1953. But in 1964 the Tibets in Qinghai were no longer counted since they were considered to be not in Tibet.) As to "destroying" Tibetan culture, it should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about Tibetan serf owning culture that the vast majority of the Tibetans are much better off when that deadly feudal culture was replaced with one with greater degree of freedom under the Chinese central government. Those who know nothing about Tibetan culture and the mere fact that 90% of the land and wealth were owned by 5% of the monks and feudal overlords who can kill anyone they pleased, should go do some reading of the real Tibet before they start demonizing China. But then such demonization doesn't make any difference. All it does is show the impotence of the Westerners who can do no more than shout empty words. At the end of the day, what can the Americans and the Europeans do? Nothing!!! And there is plenty of killing going on in America and other colonies of the Europeans. While there are millions of Tibetans in China, there is hardly any full blooded native Americans left in the US. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 17, 2008
Liang1a's original post:
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"...reliance on the West will expose China to greater dangers and keep China poor. On the other hand, self-reliance will ultimately make the Chinese the richest and in the process make China the most powerful superpower in the world and thus able to deploy the most powerful military to guarantee China's sacred sovereignty. In the end, pride and honor will confer greater reward." ------------------ Dodo's response: MY GOD! DO YOU WORK FOR THE JUCHE [self- reliance] DICTATOR KIM JONG IL - N.KOREA? Such a bright future! - LOL Any other bright ideas to keep us entertained? - LOL ----------------------- No, I don't work for anybody. I'm quite independently wealthy, thank you very much. And I fail to understand what N. Korea has to do with China. Dodo seems to have got Korea mixed up with China. China launched a moon probe last year. China has hundreds if not thousands of ICBMs that can reach all parts of the US. I don't think N. Korea has accomplished any of these technological feats yet. At least I haven't heard of it. As it is, China can't expand its exports to America anymore because America is going broke. So China has to develop its own internal economy unless it wants to give away half a trillion dollars' worth of free gifts every year to the deadbeat Americans. I don't see any point of that. Do you? report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 17, 2008
Tian Li wrote:
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The greatest purported authority on what the Chinese people believe, of course, is the Communist Party itself. Just yesterday, for example, a Foreign Ministry spokeswoman issued a "demand" to the "few" U.S. senators who are promoting a resolution in support of peaceful dialogue between China and the Dalai Lama: They should "abandon prejudice and immediately stop wrongful remarks and deeds that hurt the Chinese people's feeling." Never mind that the resolution was unanimously approved by the full Senate... -------------------- O, my goodness. It has been approved by the full Senate (of the US)!!! How silly it is for the Chinese not to kowtow to the wishes of the full American Senate. Of course, if it is approved by the full American Senate, then the Chinese must accept it as God's own commands. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 17, 2008
tian Li wrote:
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The Chinese Communist Party, which maintains a monopoly of power, makes clear that certain views can't be publicly expressed. Many thousands of security agents spend their days and nights monitoring e-mail and Internet communications and blocking Web sites that challenge party orthodoxy. ------------------------ Asia Sentinel has deleted several of my posts. So much for freedom of expression. And I like to see you stand at the street corner of some rural American town and denounce America. What will happen to you is sure to be much worse in the hands of the patriotic Americans than someone shouting anti-CCP slogans at a street corner of some rural village in the hands of Chinese farmers. The Chinese farmers will probably just give you blank stares. The patriotic Americans will probably tie you to the back of their pickup truck and drag you around till you're dead. (Such incidences had actually happened. So beware.) report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 17, 2008
Liang1a's original post:
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"America got its nose bashed in trying to invade China through Korea." -------------------- Shi-shi's response: After America saved Mao Tse Dung from the Nationalists you make such a rediculas claim? LOL ----------------------- What? You never heard of Korean War? report abuse
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Italian Solution
written by Bushwhacker , April 17, 2008
The Dalai Lama himself said that he is not seeking independence. For a start,
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a) The China Tibetan autonomous authority should not require Monks to denounce the Dalai Lama as he is their spiritual leader. b) The Freaking foreigners should not dabble in the China Tibet issue because this is an internal issue for China. Rather than waiting for the next Dalai to be reincarnate, China should negotiate with the current 14th Dalai. Despite his credential as his holiness, this Dalai is just as worldly as his equivalence in Rome. As a solution out, the Dalai clique and China should consider the line along the "Vatican style" solution around the Potala palace area in Lhasa. There the Dalai Lama can be both Spiritual head to all Tibetan buddhists not only in Tibet but around the world including Pelosi in USA. He can also enjoy the trappings of a Temporal head who can appoint his own officials, issue his own currency, stamps. The Dalai should not expect too much from China or the world because China is no Serbia when coming to Kosovo. No self respecting government will allow a large chunk of its teritory to secede even if the population is for independence aka the genocide of the Confederates by the freedom loving Yankees. report abuse
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written by Overseas Tiger , April 17, 2008
WOW!!!...suddenly so many Falun Gong/Epoch Times posters here with their cut and paste postings...fascinating.
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CCP MURDERED One million Tibetans!
written by Chen , April 17, 2008
Survival or Death of the Tibetan Race
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After the CCP takeover, it almost destroyed Tibetan culture, their system of combining politics and religion, and Tibet's plantation economy in the name of socialist transformation. The CCP established a so-called Tibet Autonomous Region, under the absolute rule of the CCP, and the People's commune-economy. At the end of the Cultural Revolution, Tibet was raped and razed. The Tibetan religion and culture were recovered to some degree after the Culture Revolution, but it was under the tight control of the CCP. The so-called "Establishing a New Tibet" is aimed to thoroughly change Tibet. The most painful issue for Tibetans is the destruction of their faith. Statistics recorded that Tibet had 2,711 temples and 114,103 monks and nuns before 1959. Six years later, only 553 temples and 6,913 monks and nuns existed. After the catastrophe of Cultural Revolution, only 80 plus temples and about 7,000 monks and nuns were left. While the CCP is destroying temples, it also carries out the physical and spiritual destruction of monks. It forces them to participate in political study, to betray and expose one another, to insult the Dalai Lama, and even forces monks and nuns to have sex. Disgruntled monks are jailed. The numbers of monks who have been imprisoned or killed are countless. For monks who believe in reincarnation, the CCP's destruction of their spirits is far more unbearable than that of their bodies. [much more] http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-4-14/68991.html report abuse
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Always Remember The Chinese Communist Party Creed
written by Popa , April 16, 2008
I am the Lord your God - You shall have no other gods before me.
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Xinhua: the world’s biggest propaganda agency
written by ATTENTION , April 16, 2008
For completely unbiased, non-pornographic, non-commercial news please go to here:
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http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=15172 Some fifty-cents are getting rich! report abuse
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Juche China - LOL
written by DuDu , April 16, 2008
Liang1a Wrote:
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"...reliance on the West will expose China to greater dangers and keep China poor. On the other hand, self-reliance will ultimately make the Chinese the richest and in the process make China the most powerful superpower in the world and thus able to deploy the most powerful military to guarantee China's sacred sovereignty. In the end, pride and honor will confer greater reward." MY GOD! DO YOU WORK FOR THE JUCHE [self- reliance] DICTATOR KIM JONG IL - N.KOREA? Such a bright future! - LOL Any other bright ideas to keep us entertained? - LOL report abuse
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Free Tibet - Free China
written by Tian Li , April 16, 2008
Since so much policy is built on the views of the Chinese people, it's worth asking: How do we know what they think? It's hard enough to gauge national sentiment on complex topics in societies where people feel no compunction about expressing their views. In nations where freely expressing views can and often does land people in prison, it's quite a bit harder.
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The Chinese Communist Party, which maintains a monopoly of power, makes clear that certain views can't be publicly expressed. Many thousands of security agents spend their days and nights monitoring e-mail and Internet communications and blocking Web sites that challenge party orthodoxy. The greatest purported authority on what the Chinese people believe, of course, is the Communist Party itself. Just yesterday, for example, a Foreign Ministry spokeswoman issued a "demand" to the "few" U.S. senators who are promoting a resolution in support of peaceful dialogue between China and the Dalai Lama: They should "abandon prejudice and immediately stop wrongful remarks and deeds that hurt the Chinese people's feeling." Never mind that the resolution was unanimously approved by the full Senate; if she and her employers are so sure of the Chinese people's feelings, why not allow them to speak out -- or more radically, to vote for their leaders? We think any U.S. senator receiving such a demand might be entitled to respond: Who elected you? report abuse
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written by ShiShi , April 16, 2008
Liang1a wrote:
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"America got its nose bashed in trying to invade China through Korea." _______________________________________________________ __ After America saved Mao Tse Dung from the Nationalists you make such a rediculas claim? LOL What is truly pathetic the state of the N.Korean people under the vicious thunmb of your puppet dictator in your Korean Province. You should be ashamed of your cowardice dictator Party. The whole world is watching as your history is being written for all to see. report abuse
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Chinese Fascism
written by Paul Clark , April 16, 2008
As we enjoy watching the debacle of the Chicom Torch Relay disastrously unfold from London to Paris to San Francisco to points beyond, let's step back to the bigger picture of what these Olympics are all about.
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They are not about sport and Olympic Ideals, that's for sure. The competing athletes from scores of countries all over the world are only props. These Beijing Games are about one thing only. They are about face - Chinese face. The concept of face - as in "losing face" or "saving face" - plays a critical role in Chinese culture and the way most Chinese deal with reality - a way that is fundamentally opposed to that of Americans. If your "face" is the primary concern of your life, controlling your conduct and morality, then you believe that reality is what other people say it is, not what it is in fact. The morality of face is the morality of pretend. For any country to host an Olympic Games, it's a matter of national pride. But for China, that's ALL that it is. The purpose of the Beijing Games is China's "coming-out party," during which the world accepts Chicom China as a morally legitimate nation, and publicly pretends it is not a dictatorship. For the Chicoms, this pretense is the Games' ONLY purpose. Which means, if the party is spoiled, it will be a catastrophic loss of face for the Chicoms, and the Han Chinese they rule. What will be the consequences of this? [HINT - NAZI Fascism] report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 16, 2008
It is obviously necessary for the Chinese to speak out to condemn the West's interference into Chinese affairs. It is also obvious that the West is impotent to change anything in China through empty talks and demonization. If they could through force make Tibet independent, they'd have done it long ago. America got its nose bashed in trying to invade China through Korea. India got its nose bashed in trying to invade Tibet. Therefore, as long as China is strong and independent, the West's demonization of China is less than the passing wind. It is just a sign of their impotent chauvinism and serves no more purpose than to annoy the Chinese people and stroke the West's bruised ego.
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But it should also remind the Chinese people of the danger of relying on the West for economic growth. If too much of China's economy were reliant on the West then there will be many traitors in the Chinese government calling for concessions to the West including giving up Tibet. Therefore, China must immediately take steps to decrease its foreign trade with the West. In the end, the development of China's own vast internal economy is what will make the Chinese people richer. Continuing the foreign trade is a dead end street. It is a dead end street because America and the West simply are not big enough to absorb China's increaing output. America is already in recession and simply could not increase its imports from China. And the dollar is falling like a rock in its value against the yuan. Therefore, continuing exports to America will only get the Chinese more valueless dollars. Chinese cost of labor must also be kept low to motivate Western factories to be located in China. As soon as the cost of labor increased, the foreign factories will be relocated out of China. Therefore, relying on foreign factories to provide jobs will inevitably keep the Chinese people poor. On the other hand developing China's internal economy will keep the incomes and wages increasing because the incomes and wages will then depend on the productivity of the Chinese workers. And as long as the productivity of the Chinese workers continue to increase through technological advancement, the incomes and wages of the Chinese workers will continue to increase until the Chinese people are the most productive and hence the richest in the world. Therefore, reliance on the West will expose China to greater dangers and keep China poor. On the other hand, self-reliance will ultimately make the Chinese the richest and in the process make China the most powerful superpower in the world and thus able to deploy the most powerful military to guarantee China's sacred sovereignty. In the end, pride and honor will confer greater reward. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 16, 2008
Rudolph Ebner wrote:
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Our reporters in the popular media are in no such personal danger - they are lazy and perhaps uninterested. Perhaps they are also moral cowards - not wishing to upset their sponsors. ---------------------- The Western media know what they're doing when lying about China. They're pandering to the chauvinistic Western viewers and readers to increase their share of the audience and thus increase their advertising and circulation. It is all about money. It is just like pornography. Those in the porn business don't really care what kind of moral trash they purvey. They just want to make money. And because the majority of the Wesetern population like pornography, that is what are being provided to them. In the end, it is both the chauvinism of the Westerners and the dishonest media of the West that are responsible for all the lies in the Western media. report abuse
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Dear P Kauffner
written by OT , April 16, 2008
Mein Gott, Peter Kauffner, your ignorance is so jaw droppingly mind boggling that it would be hilarious if it wasn't so desperately sad.
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As a matter of historical correction, the Communist bombardment of the Palace occured during the uprising by Tibet's aristocrats, which was AFTER the DL has already left Tibet. He didn't leave because the Communist was bombarding the Palace, he left because of rumours spread by the CIA/Indian backed aristocrats and higher levels monks that the Communists were going to kill him. The purpose was to spark off a popular uprising by the peasants, which failed because the peasants at the time couldn't care less about the aristocrats and the higher level monks. A apt analogy would be the British people's love for the Queen, but often wouldn't give a toss about the government headed by the Prime Minister. The agreement between the Communists and the DL was in recognition of him as a leader of his people, but also obligated the DL to enact social and political reform of Tibet's feudal society. Rightly or wrongly he was manipulated into fleeing, thus abandoning his own people and their chance at meaningful autonomy within the PRC. And as a matter of international law, you are not a sovereign nation until other nations recognised you as such. It is perhaps a technicality, but all legal systems are based on such technicalities. Otherwise you'll have anybody and everybody who buys an island or a disused platform in the North Sea or the English Channel declaring independence and sovereignty (yes this too has happened before, but they were usually ignored or were forcibly evicted). If you represent the future of Western liberal democracy, we should all be very afraid and germans should have even less to do with you. Einfach unglaublich. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 16, 2008
pamanush is obviously not a Chinese. Certainly not with a name like pamanush. And certainly not with the kind of trash he posted. His talks about Chinese cynicism is just a little too convenient for the West. It is in fact a figment of the West's wet dream. Patriotism is alive and well in the hearts of Chinese. And patriotism burns even brighter as the overseas Chinese are subjected to insults and injuries in the West.
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It is a western conspiracy
written by realist , April 16, 2008
All this is part of a Western conspiracy to give way to a weak China. Push for an independent Tibet, who will then invite foreign troop to encircle China. Did you read that the Japanese premier asked China to deal with the Tibet issue. He is interfering in the internal affairs of another country. How do Japan like it if China ask Japan to resolve the Okinawa issue, whose culture was destroyed by the Japanese and the land taken from the Okinawan, who are different from the Japanese. It was a kind of ethnic cleansing.
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Japan should mind its own business. report abuse
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written by Ling Liu , April 16, 2008
To BeWay: We should always remember what Bible says:"first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.". I only have one plea for you: please don't spread hatred, win people's hearts by noble deeds instead of guns as we all know "we reap what we sow".
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Grateful to Dinah Gardner
written by Rudolph W. Ebner , April 16, 2008
For all of us interested in trying to understand what is being reported about China and Tibet this is a good article.
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I find that the reporting in our popular media is lazy and sloppy. It appeals to emotion and gives no real context. Commentary in the American media has simple mindedly demonized China without analyzing in any adult fashion the history and context of this story. One popular commentator on CNN simple-mindedly suggested that China has not changed over the past several decades. "I don't know if China is any different, but our relationship with China is certainly different..." (Reported in New York Times, April 16, 2008 by jim Yardley. The commentator was Jack Cafferty.) In the United States we do have a free press (heavily influenced by corporate interests). It is dominated by hacks. this is a danger to our democracy. Sloppy reporting and commentary is too typical of much of the news Americans depend upon. In China they do not have the freedom that we have. I would be in danger of prison if I were a citizen of China and commenting as I do here. The Beijing governmnent keeps strict control of the media. On this issue they demonize Tibetans who remain loyal to their Dalai Lama and they pander to Chinese nationalism. This is similaiar to what the Bush Administration does when it suggests that critics in the USA are traitors. But in China the Beijing government has it much easier to throw so-called "traitors" in jail or otherwise make their lives and the lives of their families miserable. Our reporters in the popular media are in no such personal danger - they are lazy and perhaps uninterested. Perhaps they are also moral cowards - not wishing to upset their sponsors. So here is a thoughtful article on the reporting from the west and from China. It is aptly called "Reason Lost in Angry Voices on Tibet." The first paragragh tells the theme: "In the squabble between Chinese and western media, truth, as usual, is the first casualty." I am grateful to Dinah Gardner for this article. With deep affection for the Chinese people, and that includes the Tibetans, - Rudy report abuse
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The 17-point agreement of 1951
written by Peter Kauffner , April 16, 2008
A sovereign state has the right to withdraw from a treaty on six months notice. The U.S. did it with the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty. The Chinese had bombarded his palace and tried to kidnapped him, so the Dalai Lama certainly had good reason to withdraw from the 17-point agreement. China no longer even goes through the motions of fulfilling any of it's obligations under this treaty, so I find it odd that anyone would use it to claim that China has rights in Tibet.
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Modern Theocracies
written by Bushwhacker , April 16, 2008
The West feel righteous in supporting the Free Tibet Movement. After all, the Dalai Lama is the God King. Fifty years ago, he tore up his 17 points agreement with China and stage an armed rebellion with CIA and Indian help. Today his clique is instigating violence in Western Capitals to protest the Olympic and also riotings inside Tibet to force the Chinese government to negotiate for a return to serfdom he once head. Ultimately he planned to split Tibet from China at a latter stage.
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Today we also have Osama bin Laden. He is widely recognised as the Emir of Islam. His aim is to use terrorism to force a return to Mediaval Islam age. Shouldn't the liberal media also give the same support Osama's noble aim to establish an Islamic theocracy? report abuse
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Dear Hollies of the World 4
written by OT , April 16, 2008
Dear Holly
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While urban Han Chinese are only allowed one child, ethnic minorities are allowed to have more, but a cap may nevertheless be placed on families having more than two depending on circumstances. However, population control policies in Tibet are complicated by cultural and religious factors leading to allegations of ‘cultural genocide’. Culturally, it is complicated by the still common practice of a woman also marrying their husbands’ brothers when they marry into a family, so that there is inherent competition among the brothers to have more children as they are not sure whose child belongs to whom. And if you dear Holly are a feminist, I just wonder how you would feel about this. Religiously, the population control policies are further complicated by Tibetan propensity/obsession to garner ‘merits’, fulfil one’s dharma and bring honour and prestige to the family by having one of its members become a monk or nun, which would then mean an ending of the family line. To prevent that means in turn more children must be born to a family, more pressure on the woman to get pregnant and stretching a country’s and the world’s resources even further. Then the uncomfortable question for you Holly as American, is whether you are willing to consume less of everything for other people’s benefit? To relief this pressure, the Chinese authorities also limit the numbers of monks and nuns, while simultaneously also provide funding for the maintenance, restoration, preservation and the rebuilding of a reduced number of, but nevertheless important monasteries for both commercial, cultural and socio-political reasons. But the greater question that needed to be asked is whether there is a Tibetan culture independent of the monasteries and the form it takes in this modernity. Otherwise, the only way the Tibetan society would be able to support the large number of monasteries and their occupants would mean a return to a feudal and unquestioning theocratic Tibet. This in turn would have left it weak and open to foreign invasion necessitating subsequent Chinese intervention and involvement as has occurred many times in past dynasties. And as a matter of geopolitics, just as America under the still in effect Monroe Doctrine cannot abide any Communist government or foreign involvement in Latin America, China as a matter of national security will not tolerate any foreign involvement in Tibet. And as with America, this may/will unfortunately at times involve torture for the purpose of gathering intelligence because of perceived threat to national security, irrespective of whether justified or not. Consequently, China’s Tibetan borders have become militarily sensitive areas, where the border guards, as it is well known in Tibet, have orders to shoot to kill. By comparison, China’s borders with Mongolia and N Korea do not have national security issues and border guards there do not shoot to kill. Ethnic Mongolian nomads regularly crossover informally, whilst N Korean refugees are simply arrested and rightly or wrongly returned as a matter of policy. The alternative would be to build a fence, but unfortunately, unlike America’s border fence with Mexico, the terrain is much more ‘mountainous’, the border much longer, the cost prohibitive, not to mention ecologically unsound. So dear Holly, while I like your passion and it warms my cockles I and others worry when peoples of nations such as China and America have such misguided understanding of each other. BTW Holly, I was not born in China and nor am I Chinese, although I do speak Mandarin, but then I also speak German, French and English. report abuse
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Dear Hollies of the World 3
written by OT , April 16, 2008
Dear Holly
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You heard on the programme that Tibetan nomads were forced off the land and your reaction appears instinctively emotional, but I wonder if you have ever considered that this may have also been conservation and ecologically motivated. While nomads, by definition do not ‘own’ land, some nomads were forced to change their traditional lifestyle because China’s increasing affluence has led to an increased demand for meat. This resulted in increasing overgrazing of grassland so that the fertile topsoil is being eroded leading to desertification, dust storm. This partial enforced change on nomadic culture is not only occurring in Tibet, but all over China, such as Xingjiang and Inner Mongolia, where nomadic grazing needed to be regulated and also on marginally arable land cultivated by Han Chinese and other ethnic minorities. Just like with land reform and land development cases, this have led to resentment when it is mismanaged. As many here will know, China has a population problem and it saw no alternative but to enforce strict and brutal population control methods according to its own laws. By our Western standards it appears inhumane and cruel, but from the Chinese government’s perspective, the Malthusian alternative of slow death by starvation is even worse and starvation is something the Chinese people have ample historical experiences of. It is not something which recent generations of Americans would have experience with, but I am sure European readers can ask their parents and their grandparents what the post WWII years were like or you can ask war torn and famine stricken African nations and its peoples. report abuse
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Dear holies of the World 2
written by OT , April 16, 2008
Dear Holly,
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I am sure that Iraqi women and children, who have lost their fathers and husbands, will find great comfort and joy that you (along with the majority of the US population) can or is allowed to demonstrate against the war on their behalf, especially now that it proved unwinable. I wonder if you have any idea how distastefully selfish and typically American you sound? I have an Iraqi friend and I will never forget the pain and tears in his eyes when he told me that he had just lost a brother and his youngest teenage sister because US soldiers at a checkpoint in Iraq expected them to understand English. Consequently, I would take the information provided by the Free Tibet Campaign or any other politically motivated assertion for that matter with a big pinch of salt. Why? Because I have actually been to Tibet and it was not on a tourist visit. I too saw the Despatch Undercover programme when I was in Britain as it was made by UK’s Channel 4 station. As with any other single-issue program churned out by the media, it looses a lot of the context, such that it is inherently bias in not revealing the whole truth. report abuse
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Dear Hollies of the World
written by OT , April 16, 2008
Dear Holly,
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From reading your comments I believe it heartfelt and sincere, but in many ways I agree with the thrust of the article above that reason has been lost in this debate and over the issue of Tibet. Tibet’s relationship and interaction with China is historically, politically, culturally and socially complex and on both sides of the debate it would be ill advised to react over emotionally to the issue. To do so will only cloud your judgement and dent your capacity for analysis of evidence that may not suit your already established worldview or of evidence which you find unpalatable because of your own cultural and socio-political background. Having travelled around the world, it never ceases to amaze me how people are easily manipulated through fear and hope, irrespective of race, creed, beliefs or ideology. And yes that includes people living in supposedly liberal democracies and leaders who are supposed to smarter, simply because they so desperately want to believe that their motivations for their actions are justified, that they can feel better about themselves and that they are Doing The Right Thing. Prior to the Iraq War, over 50% of British people opposed and demonstrated against the war, yet Blair was so convinced that he was morally right that he ignored it and all the demonstrations proved futile. George W Bush and his administration, for whatever reasons, so wanted the War that he used faulty intelligence provided by Iraqi opposition groups in exile to justify the War before a disbelieving and incredulous UN Security Council. And the vast majority of the American public and the American media so desperately wanted somebody to blame for 9/11 that they willingly and unthinkingly allowed themselves to be manipulated and willingly went along with it. report abuse
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Re:Pakistan
written by Some guy , April 16, 2008
>Pakistan is projected as a "terrorist country", dangerous.
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It might be the occasional bombings and beheadings that give people that idea. report abuse
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oveerseas Chinese
written by pamanush , April 16, 2008
Regarding some overseas Chinese or rather Chinese people living not in China proper who think that China and the West are at war, I do not think of much of them. Ignorant people all have their purported reasons to be narrow minded. But if history is of any guide, those people really do not matter. Don't get me wrong, they may have their days now, but they will be washed away before they could realise it. Wait til they have to find a job when, if, they return to China, the propect of what awaits must be a flashback of nightmare execpt for the most ardent sadists or Mr. Machiavelli himself. For those who continue to live not in China but support Beijing, hehe, maybe they should either go live in China or go see a shrink, or maybe a speech therapist, or bleach their skin if color of skin is so important to them, or form their own yellow nation movement or something, of course, I do not for a second think they are capable of producing even a Malcolm X let along a Dr. King.
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er
written by pamanush , April 16, 2008
I simply wish to point out two things: a) nationalism in China is not as widespread as it appears because first of all people in China tend to exercise self-censorship in what they say pblicly and secondly only those supporting nationalist sentiments are also the most vocal group in Chinese society being mostly of bored young people whose dreams and expectations derived from watching Hollywood movies have failed to materialise in real life; and b) even if nationalism is gaining larger grounds in China than I believe, it still will not get out of hand because the chance that Beijing would be on the receiving end of it is pretty good so they'd try all to stop it. If I were a fascist I'd not like the kind of efficiency the Chinese bureaucracy is capable and the paper tiger Chinese Amy of corrupt commanders and ignorant soldiers, their scientists cannot be too good either or they'd probably be working in California, even their spies I imagine probably cannot speak proper English so it is not totally unknown they've been paying million of dollars for intelligence and technology that can probably say be downloaded from the Internet. All in all, I do not think Chinese nationalism is that serious a problem, in fact, myself being a Chinese remember clearly when I was 18, after the US bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, I, then not having ever been outside China and not speaking any English, thus representing the average Chinese youth of the time, was every bit as angry as those Chinese posting anti-West posts on the Internet now. But I grew out of it gradually. Maybe it is because I studied in England, or maybe it's just natural and no big deal, perhaps for someone always lived in China it would take a little longer, but surely trade has overtaken all other issues, for better or worse, to become the primary motivator of collective human actions. So peace.
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I Smell Revenge
written by Pissed-Off , April 16, 2008
Chinese are really sick & tired of all these useless debates with the despotic West & I think we should start to change our verbal barrages with some solid actions : buy Yankee/Brits/Israeli/Japanese/Canadian/Australian/French/German/Korean(South Korea, like Japan, is never gonna be a true Asian nation as long as it is in alliance with the US) last~this should include all items including tourism, university education, services, goods etc.... Always find equivalent/compatible substitutes as far as possible. Extend only minimum hospitalities/conveniences/assistances to expats from West while in China. Refuse cooperations with them on all international matters in UN & other muti level organisations. Change our non-violent Confucianist mindsets so as to be more aggressive & be prepared to do battles, whether literally or figuratively, on all fields of human endeavours. We must resolutely recover all lost territories during the Ching period no matter how ruthlessly it may be. Reward our friends generously but punish our enemies mercilessly. We must begin to host rebel/dissident groups from our enemies & help them to subvert their governments/people. Lastly, we must help organise 3rd world countries in & around Asia to expel all illegal white settlers from Australia, New Zealand, French/US/British Polynesia/Melanesia.
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Remember to jeer/boo the Olympics teams from our enemies during the opening ceremony march-in parade, do the same during the medal awarding ceremonies & most of all, boo/jeer the hell out of the ugly/dirty Brits during the flag handing-over ceremony at the end of the Games. All Chinesec must mark these dates! The West wants war & you gonna have it! report abuse
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Western Imperialism
written by Bushwhacker , April 16, 2008
From the 17 century onwards, the West has spared no effort to subdue and keep the rest of the world ignorant, weak and divided. Now with the rising China, it is to no surprise that the West would like to use the Tibet issue to put pressure on China. Western media, institution like CIA supply funds, arms, arm training and moral support to the Dalai Clique to sabotage Chinese ethnic unity, support rioting and murder in tibetan areas to denigrate the Chinese people.
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it is really very funny
written by eric , April 16, 2008
I really want to know that why you believe that "Tibetans are being tortured and imprisoned for their opinions, Chinese government is forcing Tibet nomads off their land" . it is really! Have you been to China? Have you been to Tibet? I am a Chinese, but I do not know the "china" you described
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it\'s really funny
written by eric , April 16, 2008
I really want to know that why you believe that "Tibetans are being tortured and imprisoned for their opinions, Chinese government is forcing Tibet nomads off their land" . it is really! Have you been to China? Have you been to Tibet? I am a Chinese, but I do not know the "china" you described
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written by change99 , April 16, 2008
The Tibetans MUST change their mindset, just as the Han Chinese and the Meiji Japanese had done. Imagine what would happen if the Chinese today still wear pigtails and practise footbinding, opium smoking and feudalistic ways of life. In 1912, Yuan Shikai failed to revive a new dynasty of emperors because the Chinese people had changed for the better. Otherwise China today would still be the sick man of the world, ruled by incompetent "Sons of Heaven" and colonised by Japan and the West.
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written by Liang1a , April 16, 2008
Holly wrote:
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While numbers of dead are different depending on the publication, this civil war between China and Tibet (while not declared as a war) results in casualties of human life - period. -------------------------------------- It was a terrorist attack and not a civil war. The dead were all Han people killed by terrorists. Where is the evidence that the terrorists were supported by all or even just the majority of the Tibetans? All the evidence point to their support are in the Western countries. You rattle off buzz words like "protest" and "civil war" like you know what you're talking about. But where is your proof that it is either a protest or a civil war? A protest is a bunch of people waving flags or marching. The terrorist act as it happened was a well organized and concerted attack with the deadly aim of killing indiscriminately people of Han ethnicity. Holly as an apologist to whitewash the terrorist attack by calling it a "protest" and "civil war" is either totally ignorant or deliberately whitewashing the heinous terrorist act. To say that the Tibet terrorist attack was a "protest" is like saying the 9/11 was a protest. Will any right minded American say 9/11 was a peaceful protest? If the Westerners want to talk about Tibet rationally with reason and the welfare of the Tibetan people at heart, then they have to first know what it is they're talking about. The first thing they have to know is the history of the relationship between Tibet and the other parts of China. Tibet is part of China for hundreds of years. And that cannot be changed. Furthermore, allowing Tibet to be independent will certainly not guarantee a better way of life for the vast majority of the Tibetans. It is quite obvious that it is just the opposite. For 90% or more of the Tibetans, their way of life will be much harder under a tyrannical theocracy that have no regard for their human rights and mistreat them cruelly. The second thing the Westerners have to know is the true nature of the Tibetan feudal system of government which is a serf owning system where 90% of the Tibetans were serfs with no rights and subject to heinous cruel and unusual punishment by any standard in the hands of their overlords. If the Westerners didn't know about these facts, how can they pretend to discuss the Tibetan problem with any "reason" and humane rationality, and enlightenment and for the benefit of the Tibetan people? In the end, it is abundantly clear that the Westerners all want to gloss over the heinous nature of the feudal cruelty of the Tibetan way of life. They keep shouting that the Tibetans must have independence when independence will only dump the vast majority of the Tibetans into feudal cruelty. Therefore, since the Westerners don't care about the welfare of the Tibetans, it is clear that their only goal is to disintegrate China and supporting the independence of the Tibetans is just a means to a darker insidious end. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 15, 2008
Holly wrote:
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But the Tibet protests are against the punishment and control Chinese government is forcing upon the Tibetan way of life. Ironically you admit that all countries have their issues and flaws, so why not admit that China too is flawed in their ways and, like you said, should look at themselves before "pointing the finger" on the Dalai Lama and monks who simply want to practice their religion without fear and prosecution. ------------------------------ First as I said repeatedly, it is not about religious persecution but about the disintegration of China and the personal ambitions of the Dalai Lama and the ruling class among the monks. Westerners who persist in saying that it is about religious persecution is deliberately or mistakenly misrepresenting the central issues in Tibet. There is no religious persecution in Tibet. They are free to practice their religion as they choose. But there was the redistribution of the monastery land to the Tibetan people. There is also the curtailment of cruel and unusual punishment inflicted on the Tibetan people by the monks. And it is the few monks at the top who want their feudal privilege back who are leading the rebellion. Ironically, Holly is so gungho about castigating the Chinese government for "forcing control and punishment" on the Tibetan people but she obviously has no problem with the Tibetan monks "forcing control and punishement" on the Tibetan people with cruel and unusual punishment based on feudal rights of the serf system. It is such ignorance or deliberate sophistry that prove the Westerners are either fools or agent provocateurs. There is simply no way to discuss Tibet rationally with these people since they are not proceeding from facts but from bigotry with the goal of demonizing the Chinese and disintegrating the Chinese motherland. Every country in the world imposes its laws on its citizenry. Try not paying taxes in America and see what happen to you. It is therefore silly to accuse the Chinese government of "forcing control and punishment" on the Tibetan people as if the ordinary enforcement of any law is a heinous inhuman crime. Every government in the world must enforce control and punishment on its citizenry. Otherwise, there will be chaos. Only someone who has lost her reason will condemn any government for enforcing control and punishment over its people. And, of course, every country has its flaws. America has many flaws such as discrimination against the minorities which led to unequal distribution of wealth and incomes and standard of living. Does China has flaws? One can take it for granted that it does. But so what? It does not mean China must allow Tibet to be independent. Moreover, can Holly guarantee that an independent Tibet government will not have flaws or will not "force control and punishment" over the Tibetan people? Obviously not. It has already been amply demonstrated that the intent of the Westerners in Tibet is not to bring greater welfare to the Tibetan people but only to disintegrate China. Even if granted that there are a few well-intentioned Westerners who are genuinely concerned for the welfare of the Tibetans, they are misguided to think that bringing back Dalai Lama and going back to the feudal way of Tibetan life will be good for most Tibetan people. In fact, most Tibetans were serfs under the old feudal system with absolutely no rights of any kind. How could any genuinely good hearted people wish the Tibetan people to go back to such social injustice? report abuse
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Communist Propagnda
written by Tian Li , April 15, 2008
FYI:
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Senior Communist Chinese Party officers of the Chinese Central Propaganda Ministry have organized "Net Commentators." Online Chinese Communist Party commentators recruited by various Communist state agencies are responsible for guiding Internet users toward the authority-endorsed opinions on important issues. They are referred to as the "Internet political workers," and are paid half a yuan (US$0.06) per message they write. Internet users refer to these commentators-in-disguise as "fifty-cents." http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-11-10/47995.html Leading Chinese Intellectuals Ask China to Rethink Tibet Policy http://www.savetibet.org/news/newsitem.php?id=1245 What They're Really Fighting for in Tibet http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/19/AR2008031903053.html Fake "Tibetin" Olympic Protestor is a Communist Chinese Plant http://biglizards.net/blog/archives/2008/04/forget_it_its_c.html report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 15, 2008
From the article:
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“The Tibetan problem is about religion,” a Chinese academic who has been researching the country’s minorities for decades told Asia Sentinel. “It’s not a question of independence. It’s about the condition of Tibetan’s lives.” ---------------------- The Tibetan "problem" is not about religion but about the disintegration of China. It is also about the personal ambitions of a single self-serving individual who is the Dalai Lama who is a stooge of the West. And lastly it is about the feudal rights and priveleges of the top grade monks and nuns. The Tibetans are actually given great freedom to practice their religion by the Chinese government. The fact that there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of worthless do-nothing parasitic monks who sponge on the working peoples of Tibet and China is a testament of the freedom of religion in Tibet. The reason why Dalai Lama rebelled was not about religious persecution but about the redistribution of the monastery land to the serfs and being denied the tyrannical right of the monks to mistreat the ordinary Tibetan people. The rebellion was instigated and supported by the CIA until 1972 when Nixon wanted warmer relations with China. Those interested in the conditions of the Tibetan monks and nums in 1959 can go to the following link: http://zt.tibet.cn/english/zt/religion/200402004518142634.htm report abuse
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WATCH THE DOCUMENTARY BEFORE COMMENTING
written by Holly , April 15, 2008
Do you not see the anger and hatred and cultural isolation you are all fighting for?
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Kuan Yan - You are angry that Western Press is imposing their culture on the rest of the world. But the Tibet protests are against the punishment and control Chinese government is forcing upon the Tibetan way of life. Ironically you admit that all countries have their issues and flaws, so why not admit that China too is flawed in their ways and, like you said, should look at themselves before "pointing the finger" on the Dalai Lama and monks who simply want to practice their religion without fear and prosecution. BeWay - you ask why now? Why during the Olympics? When a group of people (Tibetans) are being controlled and beaten in secret, a plea for help must be made outside their dominant rule (China). After over 50 years of oppression they have a chance to gain global attention and spread awareness of their situation. Why the Olympics - because they want to be heard from outside their cages. And are you seriously saying China is a stubbling block to take over the world? You are projecting a task that no country intends or is capable of doing. World domination and cultural exile is exactly what the west is against! This fear of the west might be due to overindulging in propaganda or ignorance of world diplomacy. I (along with the majority of the US population) am against the war in Iraq, and hope for change in our upcoming elections. The difference is that people in the US can protest against the war without arrest or incarceration for their opinion. While numbers of dead are different depending on the publication, this civil war between China and Tibet (while not declared as a war) results in casualties of human life - period. Everyone - this thread is proof that people on both sides of the world are "misinformed". Instead of saying one is right and one is wrong, the truth may be that everyone is presenting a piece of a giant complex issue. We are all bombarded with information daily and it is our responsibility to seek truth from both Western and Chinese publications and form our own opinion. I would like to add this documentary as another piece of the information puzzle surrounding "Free Tibet" protests. http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7982410976871193492&q After seeing this maybe your opinion will change or stay the same. The point is that more information we have, the more understanding of the situation we will all be. Before negating the media or articles, just realize they are forming their opinion on the information provided to them. The truth is in information, so when Chinese media censors the information, they censor truth and understanding. Our beliefs and priorities may be different, but the facts known are - Tibetans are being tortured and imprisoned for their opinions, Chinese government is forcing Tibet nomads off their land, and the increasing number of police in Tibet invokes fear and silence about the issue. The censoring of press and the casualties involved only evokes more anger and confusion. Let us not walk among each other angry and confused, but seek truth and peace. Kaun Yan - I don't think any country can be proud of everything in their history. But if we try to learn from each other's mistakes and change that which we are not proud of, perhaps the next generation will walk a little taller with less fear in their hearts. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , April 15, 2008
Ling Liu wrote:
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...otherwise is it possible that tens of thousands of Chinese are in the western countries before and now? ------------------------ The Chinese were kept out of America by the Exclusion Act which specifically forbade the immigration of Chinese into America. That act was not repealed until 1943. It is true that many more Chinese are now living and working in the US today. But they are still discriminated against and held to be different from the other Americans. The Chinese have given more to America than it got in return. report abuse
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Reasons Lost
written by Bill , April 15, 2008
Dinah Gardner: I agree with you. Reasons lost. Above posts are my exhibit A.
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written by Liang1a , April 15, 2008
Dinah Gardner wrote:
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...Cao suggested that Tibet is a special case and that policies adopted in other autonomous regions are perhaps not appropriate and that “genuine regional autonomy” is the answer. ---------------------- Cao is a traitor. There is no reason for the existence of autonomous regions in China. Tibet, Xinjiang, and other autonomous regions should be immediately be recatagorized as provinces. "Genuine regional autonomy" will inevitably lead to secession and the disintegration of China. In fact, "genuine regional autonomy" is de facto independence. Therefore, regional autonomy is a ticking time bomb that must be defused at once. It is beyond me why the CCP instituted regional autonomy in the first place. It is not like they're de facto independent political entities like Taiwan. The continued existence of autonomous regions will lead to the logical conclusion that they must be given more "genuine autonomy" which is de facto independence for the autonomous regions and the disintegration of China. The CCP must address and rectify this problem immediately by abolishing the autonomous regions and changing them into provinces. And Southern Media Group smells to me like it has been bought out by foreigners. It is obviously now a wolf in the fold. No one can advocate the disintegration of China and not be considered a traitor. This is another danger created by joining the WTO and allowing foreign enemies to buy up Chinese media to disseminate their propaganda. report abuse
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written by BeWay , April 15, 2008
@Ling Liu
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You ain't smarter either to comment on anybody. In the way, your action and thinking is just too shallow and narrow minded to write in this forum. ** Tell us why Tibet is now an issue just before Olympic eve. ** Tell us why all the Western media are focusing on Tibet when millions on Iraqis are still be killed daily. ** Tell us why are false reporting are being published as truth, on Tibet. Having thousands of Chinese or others in Western countries doesn't mean they can claim high moral. Remember how the West exploint the world thru colonization and they are still operating in the shameless manner via subjecting the world thru the new political gameplays such as human rights. Maybe for a good reference, examine what role does IMF and World Bank played. The West is fully aware that China is now the stumbling block for them to rule the world. By breaking up China, Russia is nothing. India, forget about it. Now do you manage to understand the purpose on what is all these intense attack on China now. If you ain't able to visualize the geopolitical game being played now, you should give yourself a break. Grow up first before you drop a line or two here. It'll make you a much better person in future report abuse
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written by Ling Liu , April 15, 2008
To Kuan Yan: Why should western media has to ring the same tone as CCTV in Beijing? If nothing to hide and fear, why not allow other side to voice out their opinion? Is this your "knowledge of international issue"?
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Name any western countries that believe all other nations should follow their culture and way of living? What we see is just the opposite, otherwise is it possible that tens of thousands of Chinese are in the western countries before and now? Please refrain from using the fraise like "We Chinese...", as you can represent none other than yourself. report abuse
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To Mick, Your comments are quite childish and lack of necessary knowledge of international issue
written by Kuan Yan , April 15, 2008
To Mick
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Again why should Chinese follow a western way of doing thing. Does everyone see the reason why Chinese are so angry about the western world. The western people value their culture and way of living so much and they almost believe that all other nations should follow. Apart from this point of view, I also need to remind you of something. Such debate is not going to happen since the debate you just describe will only be held between two countries and Tibet is just a region of the China. It has no equal right to negotiate with Chinese government. Since you mentioned Oxford and I assume your are british. Why not settle down the issue with south irish before pointing finger to other country? For US, why not settle down the issue with Texas For France, why not settle down the issue with Corsica For German, why not settle down the issue with Bavaria If you can even read a history of how your western world "spread" their culture and view of value to the asian, you wouldn't be proud of yourself. We chinese have the saying:"remeber, when you point to someone, the rest of fingers are pointing at yourself". So look in the mirror before judging a country almost 8000 km away from your land. report abuse
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written by BeWay , April 15, 2008
Until recently, I'll have believe the Western medias do profess some high degree of professionalism in a fair and balanced journalism. The aftermath over the biased reporting on Tibet just give me a nice wakeup call that the Western Press is nothing but a typical example of a self-righteous making an allegation/accusation without evidence in order to brainwash the uninformed people by repeating it a thousand times. Thanks for the wakeup. Osama is right afterall.
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Biased Western media
written by realist , April 15, 2008
I have travelled many places and I am sure that the western media is biased. Asked some Pakistanis and you will engaged in a long debate. Pakistan is projected as a "terrorist country", dangerous. But, I have been to Karachi so many times. It is not what those foreign media project. There are a lot of modern, professional Pakistanis, speaks English as good as any other westerners. Many countries are C**ed and B**ed into poverty. By projecting them as such, only tough investors will even consider investing in those countries and therefore are driven to poverty. Asked any person in Malaysia and Hong Kong, about Pakistan and the answer is that it is a dangerous place, bombs exploding every other day, people in turbans, wearing AK47s. This is definitely not true in Karachi!
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So, in this case, has the Western media even tried to project a balance story. None of the attacks on property, burning and rock throwing Tibetans were reported on any scale. All the Western media reports is Dalai Lama, claiming this and claiming that. report abuse
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written by Mick , April 15, 2008
I would like to see an Oxford Union style debate on this: two speakers from either side, debating in reasoned and calm terms the proposition: "This house believes that China and the Dalai Lama should sit down to negotiate a mutally agreeable settlement to the Tibetan problem."
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Never
mind the Tibetans, the media war between China and the West has been
so furious that editors appear to have forgotten what the protests
were all about. Much as western journalists distorted Burma’s
uprising last year from a plea to help the poverty-stricken into a
single-minded demand for democracy, the Tibetans’ case has been
hijacked by a xenophobic Xinhua on the one hand and a Free
Tibet-spouting, China-doubting, western press on the other.
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